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Phoenix
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Phoenix

I quite like all the firepower we’re seeing her and this is only a small portion of the ship lol.

Can’t wait to see the rest this was always one of my favorite designs from you.

Ragnrok
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Ragnrok

I can now understand the depth of its weaponized capabilities in even more glorious detail!

Steve
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Steve

A quick question. In the 6th image, there’s a row of dark along the hull section at the start of the superstructure, I couldn’t zoom in close enough but it looks like a big cluster of blaster mounts with lots of turrets next to each other in a row, am I right? Also Fractal, she looks AMAZING! and all these guns make sense too for point defence. SW guns are not lasers, they are a form of plasma canon and plasma don’t last long in space, whilst the bigger guns, the anti-ship weapons would probably have a far greater range,… Read more »

Phoenix
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Phoenix

You are partly right Steve

Star Wars guns turbolasers at least anyway do incorporate plasma but they aren’t full on plasma weapons they’re part particle beam part plasma.

And naval guns in star wars actually have incredibly range in the EA at least, the DBY-827 Dual Heavy Turbolaser Turrets of the Venator had a range of 10 light minutes.

Not counting the other dozen or more types of naval weaponry.

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Hey, Fractal (and everyone who’s interested) I recently had a headcanon that I think would serve as a better explanation as to how the Holdo Maneuver works (aside from the Canon’s “it’s the interaction with its experimental shield” gimmick) that lead to reasons why Rebels didn’t ram their X-wings to the Death Star and also happens to solve the question I saw on here on why the Empire don’t produce warships with faster hyperdrive when a “hotrod” like the Falcon can have one. Here’s my little explanation “diagram” I made and critiques/improvements/discussions welcome! https://bit.ly/2JaftNF

Keith
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Keith

Very curious. So there must be a logarithmic curve for a ship’s kinetic energy that progresses from a stop towards hyperspace (speed?). If your goal is to turn your ship into a weapon, being too close to the target your kinetic energy is too low and you spat on their shields (or just have a normal-space collision). Too far away and your effective mass is too low (although it has high kinetic energy) and you scatter against the target’s ‘ray’ shields (or whatever protects a ship from energy weapons and the natural environment). This makes me wonder if part of… Read more »

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Interesting addition on the aspect of the logarithmic curve of kinetic energy! Shields defending against a point blank rammer never actually occured to me since I just take the absurd acceleration into hyperspace simply making them immediatly deadly once they start moving. (Of course, this is avoided in the original idea by the notion that ships (specifically starfighters) would have been plucked off long before they could get to proper position)

Valoren
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Valoren

Still doesn’t really address the problem the Holdo maneuver has, contradicting conservation of energy. If a ship can muster the kinetic energy necessary to split apart a ship a 100 time its size, then where does the energy necessary to achieve that come from ? If it comes from the ships reactor, then why couldn’t this energy be used in some sort of weapon that would make modern star wars shields, turbolasers obsolete and mega-battleship an liability ?

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

The kinetic energy comes from the acceleration to hyperspace, whose methodology varies from ideology to ideology. One idea I’ve heard is the energy released when atomic particles of a substance (hypermatter?) are released and are sent at FTL speeds. My ideology doesn’t really cover this, however, but just raise the mechanics of the galaxy at large that Holdo just happen to weaponize, as well how it’s relatively (pun not intended) weak.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

An alternate possibility is that there wasn’t actually a physical impact, but rather an intersection of the ships’ respective mass shadows. Per the EU understanding of hyperspace, gravity is the only form of energy that carries over the boundary between realspace and hyperspace (which is key to the functioning of things like the hyperdrive safety cut-out and gravity well projectors). The Raddus/Supremacy collision was sufficiently unique in appearance alone to suggest it was something other than just a standard kinetic impact; what if that’s what a graviton collision at several hundred times the speed of light looks like?

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Mass shadow collision is an interesting idea, though it would suggest that Raddus’ entire mass had slammed into Supremacy while in hyperspace, but somehow only produced a mild fraction of the potential energy released from such an impact. Additionally this would mean every ship has a mass shadow so such an impact would be commonplace in a more heavily trafficked airspace like Coruscant? If this is only relevant for massive ships on the scale of Supremacy, I guess I can accept it though it doesn’t quite solve why the Rebels didn’t ram X-wing onto a clear mass shadow that is… Read more »

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

For one thing, there’s a much greater mass disparity between an X-Wing and the Death Star than there is between the Raddus and the Supremacy. And even then, note that quite a lot of the Supremacy actually survived the impact, even though the ship itself was effectively destroyed. There’s no guarantee that, even if a ship the size of the Raddus was used to ram the Death Star at hyper-c velocities, it would’ve done enough damage to even mission kill the Death Star. What if it just blew a hole straight through it, yet didn’t damage enough critical systems to… Read more »

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Hm, it’s sound! Still made more sense than shield gimmick so I’ll take it!

Chris Bradshaw
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Chris Bradshaw

The size restriction is only daunting when you’re contemplating throwing away your precious capital ships. If hyperspace ramming was at all viable, major powers would construct dirt cheap expendable droid ramships by attaching hyperdrives to massive asteroids or derelict wrecks, and sling them en-masse at targets in large salvoes to generate higher kill chances. Non-Death Star battlestations or macro-scale infrastructure like the Kuat shipyard ring would seem exceptionally vulnerable to this sort of attack, but it doesn’t seem to happen. Besides, we’ve already had the discussion as to how accurate Rogue One has retconned hyperspace jumps to be. I prefer… Read more »

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Agreed. Star Wars is space-opera, not hard sci-fi, and is centered around individuals doing heroic things at the appropriate moment. This was Holdo’s “hero moment,” and the Force was with her. Using this as an excuse to introduce expendable droid ram ships dehumanizes and cheapens the core of Star Wars itself.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Something else I noticed recently…

According to the novel for ANH, there is actually significant overlap between how far from a gravity well repulsorlifts function and how close to a gravity well a hyperdrive functions. Per the novel, in the scene where the Falcon arrives at the Alderaan system, the ship should’ve been ~1 planetary diameter from the planet’s surface (page 125 in my version). That’d put the “zone” for entering and leaving hyperspace between 1-2 planetary diameters, not the 6 where repulsorlifts hit their limit.

Valoren
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Valoren

From a sheer consistency standpoint, it doesn’t explain why the rebels didn’t try hyperramming either DS2 or the executor at the battle of endor, using one of own capital ships.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

I wonder where people get the idea that, just because a tactic was used in a certain set of circumstances, it must be the go-to tactic in all other similar circumstances. Maybe it /was/ on the table, but only as Plan B or Plan C if the starfighter strike at Yavin didn’t work out. Why waste a valuable asset like a star cruiser if you can get the same result by throwing some starfighters at the target instead?

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Well, the now-Legendized ROTJ novel does mention munition-loaded transports (GR75?) coming into play once things go spitting-distance, but even there it seems like those were sublight approaches which gave crews time to evacuate. As for why hyper-rams weren’t tried earlier with a Mon Cal or three, lining up said impact(s) might’ve tipped off either big target (and their screen) to respond with tractor beams, Intensified Forward Firepower(C) and/or the dialed-down superlaser. I’ll also admit to serious doubt WRT even Home One-tonnage cruisers boasting enough impact yield to make DS2’s planetary-grade shield flicker.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

I did a game stat version of the GR75, calling it an Alliance Bomb Ship, in the same vein as a Fire Ship from the Age of Sail.

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

My explaination for that is pretty simple: limited resources. As far as the Rebels knew, the Emperor wasn’t on the DS2 and to so freely lob away your valuable warships on a something a galactic power can just rebuilt, you are now in a disadvantage by one (or so) ships if the Empire chose to pursue.

Eric Otness
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Eric Otness

Problem is, they DID in fact know the Emperor was on the DS2 (heck, that was part of the reason why they even BOTHERED to risk everything to blow the whole thing up, kill two birds with one stone in other words), so that doesn’t really make much sense as an explanation. And besides, they were pretty much using the near totality of their forces if the now Legends novelization is to be believed, so it’s not like they had anything to gain either way.

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Did they? I might have to double check the sources, but I was pretty sure the Endor attack was just meant to disrupt the construction of the “incomplete” battlestation.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Yup. “We’ve learned the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star. Many Bothans died to bring us this information.”

So yeah, that might’ve been worth the ram, but as I pointed out above, there are all kinds of reasons why it might not be as viable a tactic as people think, and certainly far more costly than sending a squadron or so of elite starfighters into the construction access points to attack the reactor directly.

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Come to think of it, Ackbar & friends would’ve likely loved to put a couple dozen volleys into DS2’s least-constructed hemisphere. That pesky detail WRT the working superlaser and resultant evasive glomming onto Death Squadron just didn’t put ’em in any immediate position to do so (or line up any hypercollisions) once the damn shield was finally sabotaged. Although now I recall some SDN discussion WRT Ackbar’s cruiser perimeter mainly being intended to stop Palpy’s escape when he Foresaw(C) what was up (“Still failing miserably to cloak your thoughts, young Sky…’shoot here’? Oh sithspew.”)

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Per the RotJ novel, the cruisers actually did just prior to Lando and Wedge hitting the reactor.

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Clarification appreciated. I suppose punching through that much artificial-moon materiel, even unshielded, would’ve been at least a bit time-consuming even for HTLs. Plus, not like Lando & Wedge wound up short on conflagrations to outpace.

Phoenix
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Phoenix

Her maneuver had nothing to do with energy it had to do with the prototype shields that the Raddus had, without those shields a hyperspace ram would be impossible so it was literally a one time move that can never be used again according to the novelization of the movie. Though I think it was stupid to even let it go that far, in the EU I think it was 3 imperial star destroyers collided with a executor super star destroyer via a hyperspace ram and it did absolutely nothing to it’s shields. And the hyperspace ram wasn’t even on… Read more »

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Sheesh, one-off experimental (particle?) shields that muck with hyperspace/mass shadows/whatnot? That’s only marginally better than ‘lightsaber-crystal superturbos which totes make all ur old ships swiss cheese but will never scratch a Hero Vessel’. I’m sorely tempted to handwave said novel tidbit as ‘secondary material expansion’ ala the ROTS adaptation’s extra dialogue/context for Palpy & Mace’s saber duel. As for that 80s newsprint comic’s Executor impact thing…sad to say I distinctly recall Ex suffering temporary shield loss (though no direct damage). A few stardestroyer.net posters claimed the crashing Impstars had already reverted to realspace (and average-to-low sublight velocity) before impact (I… Read more »

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Indeed. This is the same story group that said the MC75 was a converted building (never mind the vast difference in structural tolerances involved) and that Chirrut Emwe could only see because of a special crystal fitted into his staff (never mind how that was supposed to help him shoot down a TIE fighter with a bowcaster). I view anything that comes from Darth Maus with extreme skepticism until someone can provide a plausible explanation as to why.

Daib
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Daib

No one said that the MC-75 was designed to be a town hall and not a destroyer. If (lazy) Imperial authorities are preventing the squids from putting together proper warships, it would make a neat story if they responded by disguising their naval buildup with various cover stories like this particular town hall gimmick, and building them with warship-grade reactors, structural tolerances, and lots of pleasant balconies that have conveniently good turbolaser arcs.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

Per the Rogue One Visual Guide, the Profundity was literally the Central Governance Tower of the city of Nystullum on Mon Cal (of which Admiral Raddus was the mayor). Not “disguised as,” or “officially listed as,” but “was.” Considering that it looks a lot like Clone Wars-era Free Dac Volunteers Engineering Corps (mostly Quarren) products like the Prosperity and the Malevolence, and nothing at all like the later MC80 and MC85 ships from RotJ (which were converted space liners), a safer approach would’ve been to make it a Clone Wars era ship pressed into service with the Alliance. It’s hard… Read more »

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

An off tangent here but wait, Chirrut needs some Disney magic crystal to aid his “vision”? Way to make an interesting potential all dumb…

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

I double-checked. Specifically, his staff has a sliver of kyber crystal in the end-cap, and that the sound of the crystal in motion allows him to better gauge where the end of the staff is in a fight. But yeah, in a galaxy with the Force, it would’ve been just as easy to make him a mystic of some type from a non-Jedi Force using tradition.

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Your last line is…pretty much what I figured Chirrut & Baze were (they had a real Believer/Agnostic Couple(C) dynamic). Just enough mojo to move the script along, not *nearly* enough to bend it around peoples’ ears Darth Stellarbodypunter(C)-style.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

That”s been the general approach of the gaming community for quite a while. In the early days of fandom discussion on the Internet, there would be all-out brawls over what preempted what when there was a conflict in canon. After a while, there was so much contradictory stuff that it just couldn’t be papered over any more, so most people just resorted to picking and choosing what parts of the EU they wished to include in their own personal version of the SWU. The phrase “my SWU” pops up quite a bit.

Daib
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Daib

Would anyone be down with putting together a Fractalsponge discord? It would make a neat community hub for having and archiving these sorts of discussions.

CRMcNeill
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CRMcNeill

That’d be cool. There’s a lot of interesting tidbits in the comments here that are hard to find unless you know exactly what you’re looking for.

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

As someone who likes a stable background the likes of official narratives (ironic, I know, as I am the one that started this discussion that leads to this tangent), the level of lore flexibility presented in 40k isn’t too viable for me. I like Legends approach to it though, where things are concrete enough to have continuity but if a better/contradicting idea came by, relevant details are retconned/altered to fit in with the newer sources for better flow. This method is far more favorable to the likes of current procedure in Canon that runs through the “Story Group” (can you… Read more »

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Sad thing is, I could totally see ex-CIS Quarren shipwrights winding up with the brunt of Imp sanctions while their currently-‘civilian’ Mon Cal counterparts tried to slip suspicion as long as possible. Plus, a reactivated auto-facility or six out in the reaches makes markedly more sense than seed fleet assembly in the increasingly-monitored depths of Dac.

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

I know the ram had to do with the shields, which is why I made thid headcanon. The shield reasoning is like the testament I dislike about Disney’s canon, with every explaination of the impossible being waved away with some new tech when you could try to rationalize it. Let this asspull go on some more next thing you know, the Inquisitor were able to fly because their lightsaber crystal were special or something.

PhoenixKnight
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PhoenixKnight

There is a topic on the Star Destroyer. Net

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

Unfortunately, I don’t have an account there so I can’t really be a part of it.

Morh
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Morh

I recently read some head canon about how it could be the Hyperspace tracking tech that allowed the Holdo maneuver to work that doesn’t break all the years of canon. Now even though you won’t hit things in real space while in hyperspace, so no worrying about the small stuff. But if something is big enough to create a gravity well and you intersect that grav-well while in hyperspace you are pulled into real space, this is where your problems begin. It’s how Interdictors work. (Head Canon here) So the Supremacy was using a new hyperspace tracking technology, to do… Read more »

TheIcthala
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TheIcthala

Turret Count update:
PD turrets: 322
Quad Medium Turbolaser Turrets: 90
Octuple Heavy Turbolaser Barbettes: 12
Twin UltraHeavy Turbolaser Turrets: 9
Quad Heavy Ion Cannon Ball Turrets (assuming they’re ion cannons. Fractal, are they?): 4

Valoren
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Valoren

I’m fairly certain they’re ion. If you look at the guns muzzles, they seem to be similar to what fractal used for the ion variant of the scythe and some previous models.

Keith
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Keith

I wonder how much plumbing an ion cannon requires. They seem to be really squeezed in there with other mounts surrounding them. Whatever the requirements there must be two sets. If the plumbing were shared, I’d think only one could fire at a time, which negates the benefit of having two in the same sector.

Steve
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Steve

Very much a case of
“Fire ze cannons!”
“What cannons Sir?”
“ALL!”

And this is only what about 1/4 of the ships hull thus far? Finally an Imperial ship that will justify their absurdly high crews!

00Shot
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00Shot

I honestly like these new dual turrets better than the original. What’s their theoretical yield?

PhantomFury
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PhantomFury

If you mean the heavy turbolasers: “The entire reactor budget of an Immobilizer is less than the single-shot output of one of those HTL.”

00Shot
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00Shot

Doesn’t really give a good indicator. Are we looking at 540 teratons, 720, more? Fractal usually has a yield in mind when he creates these HTL’s.

Ryadra777
Guest

720 teratons is right.

Cdr. Rajh
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Cdr. Rajh

She is coming along nicely, very nicely! I can’t wait to see the finish product!

PzAce247
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PzAce247

Fangasm has happend…. This one stays my alltime favorite. Just the right combination of dread inspiring aesthetics (read: Size) and utility.

Paul
Guest
Paul

I’m so glad you are upgrading this beautiful ship. By far this is my favorite Star Wars ship. Just everything about it looks right. Not to mention it fixes a lot of short comings of the regular ISDs.

Guest
Guest
Guest

Those ultra heavy TBLs are monstrous..

She has a real German pocket battleship vibe for a dreadnought. Quick enough to outrun anything that could out gun her (as if there is anything) and enough firepower to decimate anything she can catch or foolish enough to keep up with her.

gorkmalork
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gorkmalork

Eh, the Kriegsmarine’s convoy raiders seem to have somehow accumulated a rep out of all proportion to their historical effectiveness v. peer-ballpark adversaries. Still, fair points WRT Bellator not being overmatched or outsped by much out there (especially much that wasn’t nominally on the same side). Closest CIS match I can think of would be a Subjugator cruiser, and they’d need to be *very* sharp about landing & capitalizing on those ion-pulse hits.

Daib
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Daib

I’m curious why you went with ball mounts with fairly limited firing arcs instead of more turrets on the unused dorsal hull areas? Purely aesthetic, or is there some rationale behind this that I’m not getting? That being said, this fine lady is shaping up quite well.