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PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago

93 comments within a month

TheIcthala
TheIcthala
2 years ago

Weapon Count Update:
PD Turrets: 835
Quad Medium Turbolaser Turrets: 108
Quad Heavy Turbolaser Turrets: 42
Octuple Heavy Turbolaser Barbettes: 20
Twin UltraHeavy Turbolaser Turrets: 24
Quad Heavy Ion Cannon Ball Turrets: 14
Missile Launch Tubes: 108

I haven’t counted tractor beam projectors so far. If you’d like me to do so, let me know.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago

Though I admire the lack of blue tint in things like Star Wars Revisited projects, something about seeing that hue casted upon a ship to give out that cold feeling hits a chord!

Kerobani
Kerobani
2 years ago

Fractal, if you have the time, would you be willing to upload an image of the Bellator’s weapon palate? I know for a fact that you put a great deal of effort into every detail and it’s a shame that the smallest weapons tend to get lost in the larger images.

Steven A Futrell
Steven A Futrell
2 years ago

you should upload to sketchfab so we can view its full glory!

Valoren
Valoren
2 years ago

Assuming both sides of the ship have an equivalent amount of weapon, I counted 325 PD turrets on the trenches alone.

TheIcthala
TheIcthala
2 years ago
Reply to  Valoren

Including the bow turrets, it’s 421 by my count. 26 8 turret batteries on either side plus the 5 on the bow. I may have miscounted, but I’ve been as careful as I can be with my count.

Valoren
Valoren
2 years ago
Reply to  TheIcthala

You’re right, I actually missed a section of the trench.

Joshua Wheeler
Joshua Wheeler
2 years ago

Just as beautiful as the original! I also love the lighting in the 65th and 66th pictures looks precisely like the lighting you’d see in the original trilogy. Simply amazing.

Waittt OKon
Waittt OKon
2 years ago
Reply to  Joshua Wheeler

I wonder how far into the outer rim these flagship Bellators could travel. The pictures you mention look like they are en route to Tatooine haha.

boi
boi
2 years ago

I just had a terrible idea: 3D print Fractal sponge models on a massive 3D printer.

Shame that unless you’re willing to invest thousands, nay, tens of thousands, it wouldn’t work.

Waittt OKon
Waittt OKon
2 years ago
Reply to  Kerobani

That is definitely the right idea. That level of detail, makes you wonder if any game devs are approaching Fractal to do some early mockups of their own space fantasies.

PzAce247
PzAce247
2 years ago

Are those forward torpedo tubes in shot #2?

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  PzAce247

Probably. You can generally distinguish those from, say, tractor-beam dishes or other round widgets ’cause our host tends to plant short rows of ’em on heavier ship designs.

Shaun
Shaun
2 years ago
Reply to  PzAce247

Oh man! Soooooooo excited to try out the slide, too!
[Same shot, just left of the tubes.]

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  Shaun

Just remember: dianogas *always* get right of way (and any shiny stuff you didn’t leave in the locker).

TheEpicDude
TheEpicDude
2 years ago

“The ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the power of Fractalsponge.”
love it man its amazing!!

Proton
Proton
2 years ago

Hi Fractal, do you have anything planned for this ship unknown ship from DE?comment image

Looks like it has dome on top of the hull, bridge in the middle of the ship and some bulky square superstructure behinde?
Really weird for KDY design.

P.s. Amazing work, as always.

Ryadra777
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

That dome look like a gravity well generator.

boi
boi
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

Perhaps it could be a carrier, taking design cues from real life examples, i.e: a control tower on one side?

Whilst I’m replying to this, what about the Chiss star destroyer. It’s described as being smaller than the ISD, with all weak points (let’s say large points) removed.

Thanks

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  boi

Wet-navy carriers use offset control faciliities ’cause their air wings need every inch of possible launch/recovery/storage/maintenance space; said resources are much less of a problem for your average kilometer-and-change-scale SW ship with hover-capable fighters & tractor beams. This ship’s asymmetric tower *might* be a ‘simple’ case of hastily-field-patched battle damage.

Rodian_FreightJockey
Rodian_FreightJockey
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

The “bulky square” is increased hangar bay and probably spacing for elevators for launching absolute clouds of TIE fighters (see the Rogue One scene where Scarif shield depot is doing the same)

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago

Dunno if I’d stick dorsal hangar ports & a grav-well projector that close together; this one might be an otherwise-conventional Impstar-ballpark destroyer with moderate interdiction capability. Since our host already has a quad-projector Dominator-class render, doubtful overhauling this particular Dark Horse doodle would move up the queue without a commission.

Steve
Steve
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

I don’t think its a grav-well projector, IIRC its a secondary reactor section, nowhere near as powerful as the main reactor but still damn powerful, giving this ship all the energy and thrust she needs.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  Steve

I was under the impression most dagger-style ship designs keep ‘tender’ bits like launch bays & protruding reactor bits on the ventral surface so their generally-better-armed dorsal facings can be oriented toward peer opponents with less risk of a vital component hit.

Waittt OKon
Waittt OKon
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

Thanks for the clarification gorkmalork, I agree the Interdiction capable cruisers we have seen in Star Wars lore use up a ton of interior space to run the disruption dome projectors. My only other guess is a refueling / refit service platform is berthed against it.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  Waittt OKon

So a destroyer variant with the ability to top off frigates & corvettes? Could be handy for long-range patrols.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

Under what circumstances would refueling via dedicated tanker be more efficient than jumping back to a regional fleet base? When warships are never more than a few hours from a base rather than days/weeks, the operational paradigm seems much more like WW2 aircraft than wet-navy operations.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

How long of a range do you think capital ships have? Civilian pleasure craft can seemingly cross the galaxy without need of refueling, while you would think that dedicated warships would devote much more of their mass and volume to fuel than random yachts.

Waittt OKon
Waittt OKon
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

One of the last entries in ship hyperspace ranges fully fueled was in Clone Wars Cross Sections, now redacted from canon. It does give some insight into the fueling needs when you realize the smaller cruisers (ones capable of atmospheric operation) in the Clone Wars also had better hyperspace range than their heavy-hitter command ships. My guess, the Empire needs service-capable Destroyers not to increase fleet range, but to reach more of the fleet.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

IMO, that was one of the more short-sighted changes made to the SWU in the Disney era. Star Wars drew so much space combat inspiration from the WW1/2 era that transit times measured in days or weeks seemed perfectly normal, and also did much to explain the Alliance’s successes in the Outer Rim regions, as the Empire was spread thin and reinforcements were often quite far away. Transit times of hours or days within a sector – especially once off of major hyperspace lanes – made sense, but applying those same numbers to trans-galactic travel was an unforced error. Just looking at the films, the short transit times could be explained by having all of the action take place within the same sector or region (i.e. within the same sector or a few neighboring sectors), and sources like the Essential Atlas helped to bolster that. But then, for whatever reason, Disney decided to toss all of that out and deliberately place the planet settings seemingly as far apart as galactically possible. And there was no need to do that; long hyperspace times weren’t universe breaking, nor do they stand in the way of the stories being told by the new directors, if handled properly. Key word being “if.” For all the hate that gets slung at Abrams, Johnson and Kennedy, a fair share needs to be reserved for the Star Wars story group, and their obsession with stupid ideas like lightsaber-crystal powered turbolasers, converting buildings into capital warships, etc. I’d bet my next paycheck that a more competent story group could be assembled just from the people in this comments section, and at a much more reasonable price.

Proton
Proton
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

1

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

That’s true, but it went from being the exception (as in, between planets that were located on or conveniently close to a major hyperspace route) to the rule. Now it seems like every possible hyperspace jump from even middle-of-nowhere locations (like Crait in TLJ) are a matter of hours away from planets located on the other side of the galaxy. And even jumps that could be plausibly explained away as being “somewhat nearby” get ruined by the story group deliberately placing the planets on the other side of the galaxy, even when there is no need to. It’s an unforced error on the story group’s part, which is made even more egregious by the fact that it’s their collective job to resolve conflicts between the old and the new.

Seriously, I could pick five names from regular commenters on this page who would do the job for free and still do a better job than what we’ve seen from the story group thus far.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’m curious. Who’s on your list?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

In all fairness, it would probably end up being more than five. Who wants to volunteer? I mean, literally volunteer: it’s an unpaid position, but the entirety of content in the SWU would have to get your stamp of approval. I know I’d be on that list…

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

but that could also mean we could see ‘The Book’

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Sounds fun enough. I use to run an SW roleplay room and added a travel time mechanic to the chagrin of the people inside, but it’s really their own fault for jumping across the galaxy in a Class 2 rustbucket and it taking 2 irl weeks.

Proton
Proton
2 years ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

Check their perception by breaking Hyperdrive and making backup hyperdrive 12 class.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

Would be fun to GM, but awful for the player haha

Proton
Proton
2 years ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

It will tell them that spaceship is more then metal box with engines.
That is inportant in my opinion.

you can say something like ” You start piloting the ship and notice something strange in controls”

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

Under typical D&D sense, it would definately be cool for sure and give more value in ships than just some segue material!

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

Au contraire. A damaged hyperdrive and having to limp your way to the nearest inhabited system on your backup is a classic adventure hook with a long and glorious tradition.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

See, that is what I would do if it’s me. Unfortunately, the majority of the people present at the time dislikes the mechanic (because, again, it takes irl time (I will say this though, the place ran at x3 speed, and some trips still take weeks)) and are mostly singleminded to only reach their destination, so if I even mention the aspect of hyperdrive damage upon them, it’d make for some volatile atmosphere.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

Ah, the sweet, sweet tears of a band of space-going murder hobos when things don’t go exactly according to plan.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

While the nectar is indeed sweet, it is laced with a poison named grudge, haha

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

True. Easy to forget that just because the Falcon can make a super-fast jump doesn’t make it normal for everyone else.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

I bet I know

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

On who’s who on the ‘List’

countvertex
countvertex
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I remember the idea has been out there, that in hyperspace travel time is not defined by a limit on the max velocity of a ship – meaning ships could in principle go arbitrarily fast – , but rather by the availability of data on hyperspace routes, processing power of the nav computer, and maybe the willingness of the pilot to take risks. So with very accurate, up-to-date data, a top shelf navicomputer and some recklessness you can jump vast distances in a short time.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  countvertex

I have theorized elsewhere that the link for availability of data on hyperspace routes is the BoSS (Bureau of Ships & Services). The short version is that hyperspace course data is downloaded from starships to the local BoSS office as part of their regular maintenance and servicing. BoSS is semi-autonomous even during the Imperial era, and has offices all across the galaxy. This is done voluntarily in exchange for getting updated data charts either for free or at a large discount. BoSS then crunches the data it receives on a given route from all the ships that have traveled that route and uses that data to generate updated courses, which are in turn disseminated out to the star-faring public, who then use the data to make jumps, which generates more flight recorder data, which is again turned over to BoSS, thus perpetuating the cycle.

However, such a system will perpetuate the use of hyperspace routes, as the most traveled routes will remain so, by dint of the glut of available data on them. Other, less well traveled routes will have less data, and thus be less safely navigated, and as a result, travelers looking for the safest course (which will constitute the bulk of commercial traffic in the galaxy; better the shipment arrives a few days late than the entire ship is lost) will gravitate toward the lanes where the safest navigation data is available. Generally, only travelers with a specific destination in mind – or with reasons to avoid the heavily traveled (and more heavily patrolled) routes – will tend to operate more off the beaten path.

Others have made the analogy of an Interstate Highway system, and there is something to be said for that, but the key difference is that, while a Highway system requires physical maintenance and upkeep, a Hyperspace network is almost entirely composed of data, and thus it is the data that must be maintained in order to facilitate higher travel speeds. Under the system I described above, the volume of travel on a route will actually perpetuate the maintenance of that route

The problem is that, while many systems will certainly be close enough to major routes to facilitate high-speed travel, many more won’t be, due to being located well off a well-traveled route. Yet Disney seems intent on placing ALL of the planets that appear in its films in close proximity to high-speed routes, even when said planets would be more plausibly located well off the beaten path. Abandoned mining worlds, secret R&D facilities and Rebel bases would all have their own reasons for being “out in the boonies,” as it were. Yet, as I said above, Disney seems intent on making ALL hyperspace jumps short and fast, either by in-film pacing making them so, or by post-film fiat by the story group.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Not sure how much of that is Disney and how much was already established. The Death Star was able to make it from Alderaan to Yavin only a few hours behind the Falcon, and if the Empire had the constant navigational data for that sort of jump, Yavin would have been a pretty awful place to put your Rebel strategic high command.

Obi Wan was similarly able to get from Coruscant to Kamino in a few hours, a planet so isolated that it was wiped from the archives and no one noticed. He was then able to make it to Geonosis from that hidden system in a comparable timeframe with no problems. Short and fast was a precedent that was set by Lucas, and we have to work with it, like it or not.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

That’s largely a matter of perception. Was it only a few hours from Alderaan to Yavin, or was it several days? I question whether it would’ve taken just a few hours of study of the plans to identify the exhaust port weakness.

It’s also an established part of the fandom that Jedi are able to extend the operational range of starfighters by going into a hibernation trance, so again, how quickly Obi-wan traveled to Kamino and then Geonosis is largely a matter of perception. Yes, it /could/ be a matter of hours, but it could also take several days, with all of the transit time happening off-screen, with what is seen on film supporting either version. At the time, much of the EU was built around longer transit times, with the operational and strategic advantages that long transit times imparted to the Alliance being factored into the back story of their successes against the Empire in the Outer Rim regions.

And even then, much of what we see in the new films could still be explained within the long-transit-time paradigm by placing the systems where the films take place in relatively close proximity to each other. A few hours for a round-trip between an out-of-the-way mining planet and a “Vegas In Space” planet would be perfectly normal if the two planets were in the same sector or immediately adjoining sectors, and there is nothing in the actual film to suggest that they are not. And yet, the Disney story group made a point of putting Canto Bight in a completely different galactic quadrant from Crait, thousands of light years away. As I said above, it was an unforced error, made by people who are arguably only giving lip service to the idea of respecting the old EU. And I don’t have to like it, nor do I have to work with it.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

If the Death Star took several days to arrive at Yavin after the Falcon, there would be plenty of time to recall scattered fleet assets and conduct an orderly evacuation instead of a desperate do-or-die snubfighter attack. Regarding the exhaust port identification process, presumably some sort of tactical analysis droid (K-2SO software copy?) was fed the plans and managed to spit out a usable result relatively quickly.

Yes, force meditation is a possible time compressor for Obi Wan, but I’m going to invoke Occam’s Razor instead of postulating that he’s in a trance for weeks. Besides, he makes it from Kamino to Geonosis only seconds behind the Fetts, who presumably have much better data regarding that specific route under your scenario.

ROTS adds even more examples of characters departing the Core for and returning from deliberately isolated locations like Utapau and Mustafar extremely rapidly when measured against events happening on the ground, like Vader’s lava bath and the Jedi purge. Sure, the strategic paradigm from the old EU with long travel times created what might be a more interesting operational environment, but films constitute what canon is, and that’s what we have to work with, like it or not.

Besides, the writer for TFA was none other than Larry Kasdan, who also gave us ESB and ROTJ. I think his vision as to what Star Wars is should take precedence over any old EU writer, no matter how cool the Thrawn trilogy was.

countvertex
countvertex
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

I don’t think this knot about travel times and distances will ever fully be untangled. But at least there are more degrees of freedom to work with than just speed and distance. Actually distance becomes much less relevant under the assumption on hyperspace travel made above (–>it’s all in the information, or you could say only the ‘road quality’ limits your driving speed). In that way as an extreme example two points across the galaxy could be effectively ‘closer’ than neighbouring star systems.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  countvertex

I think you’re right; the “knot” can only ever be considered untangled if viewed from a certain point of view. And I agree that there will be extreme examples where planets on opposite sides of the galaxy will be relatively close in travel time terms; I just disagree that it should be the norm.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

To be fair regarding ROTS, there is some evidence Utapau at least spanned a course of days.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

You’re assuming that the evacuation didn’t take place. Notice that, despite the fact that Mon Mothma was present at Yavin in Rogue One, she was nowhere to be seen in ANH. Obviously IRL, that’s because she hadn’t been casted yet, but in-universe chronology would argue that the main leadership of the Alliance had already been evacuated, leaving the fighters and sufficient support and command staff to perform the trench run strike.

Re: Kamino to Geonosis, don’t forget he also had a homing device on their hull. In addition, one of the other myriad Jedi abilities is Instinctive Astrogation, which allows them to apply the Jedi’s precognitive abilities to the plotting of hyperspace routes. A lot to work with there.

And while the end of RotS merits discussion, there are other ways to resolve it. For instance, Darth Sidious’ “I sense Lord Vader is in danger” could’ve occured out of actual time sequence from the Mustafar duel, with Palpatine sensing the danger to Vader hours or days earlier, and the duel itself happening while he was in transit.

And if that’s too much of a stretch, recall that I’m not saying ALL jumps must be long and drawn out, but rather that it shouldn’t be the norm for EVERY jump to cross the galaxy in a matter of hours. If it can’t be resolved in any other way, then Mustafar could be one of those lucky places that is out of the way, yet located conveniently close to a major hyperspace route.

Invoking Larry Kasdan is an Appeal to Authority Fallacy. While I don’t question the ability of the man to write a good story, that doesn’t make him an expert on the minutiae of the Star Wars universe. More to the point, travel times in TFA and TLJ could be resolved under the long-travel time paradigm IF the planets involved are located in relatively close proximity from a galactic astrography perspective, and there is nothing in the films to suggest that they can’t be. And yet, the Lucasfilm storygroup, when writing up their Visual Guides for TLJ and TFA, deliberately scattered all of the planets involved across the entire galaxy. As I said above, it’s an unforced error, and is yet another example of the lack of concern and/or consideration the story group has for the old EU that they are trampling over while mining it for ideas for their kiddie cartoons.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

So long as the definition of “very low median trip length” is left open for interpretation, sure. I’d also add that many planets will be located far enough off the beaten path that routes leading to/from them would be considered “rarely traveled,” with the result that the navigation data is nowhere near as reliable as it would be for other, more heavily trafficked routes.

Another interesting twist is that, in a data-based navigation system, it’s possible that “well-traveled routes” may only be well-traveled by those with access to navigation coordinates. For example, there is mention in the EU of “Alliance Master Nav,” an Alliance-only database of Astrogation data. If a hyperspace route was only well-traveled by Alliance ships, who only fed their route data back to Alliance Master Nav and not BoSS, the nav data would be kept out of mainstream circulation. This would permit, say, a jump to Yavin or Hoth or some other Rebel Base to be treated as “well-traveled” while being relatively unknown to everyone else.

This, in turn, opens the door to other agencies all having their own “Master Nav” database, whether it’s the Empire, shipping corporations, criminal organizations, etc.

The end result here is that some systems would tend to slide off the map, so to speak, if there ceased to be a reason to go there (played-out mining facilities, planet-wide natural disasters, etc), while others would be deliberately selected for their relative remoteness, and thus the difficulty of traveling to them in the absence of available navigation data.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’m strapped for any points to add WRT transit-time averages, but could certainly see the Yavin staff evacuating all non-strike-critical personnel since their location’s been blown (metaphorically) and is bound to be blown (literally) by frothing-pissed conventional forces even if someone pulls off that reactor shot.

countvertex
countvertex
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

What Star Wars desperately needs I think is some kind of writers guideline what the ‘tech stuff’ can and can’t do!

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  countvertex

Ideally, that would be handled by the Lucasfilm storygroup, yet they have repeatedly fumbled that ball since taking over.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

I think the presence of thousands of non-essential personnel and key strategic leaders like Leia and Dodonna at the Yavin awards ceremony shows that the Alliance wasn’t able to evacuate more than a handful of people at best. Besides, the whole point of X and Y-Wings is to not require a base in the immediate vicinity to launch a strike. Given days to prepare, they could have easily gotten everyone off of the moon by recalling the ships that scattered after Scarif and perhaps using a single CR-90 to provide AWACS to the strike package. If you accept Disney materials to explain Mothma’s disappearance, the Rebel Files supplement described her as going into a short self-imposed exile after the destruction of Jedha city.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

I don’t accept it; Mothma was the main leader of a galaxy-wide resistance movement that had been in operation for twenty years. Continuing the day-to-day operations of the Alliance would’ve been more important than grieving over the loss of a single city on a single planet (which is really small potatoes on a galactic scale), especially when the Alliance was facing a threat as dire as the Death Star. I’ll add this to the growing pile of evidence that the story group is awful at their jobs.

And there are reasons why Leia and Dodonna might choose to stay. Per the EU, while Dodonna and Leia were important leaders in the Alliance, they did not hold official positions as department heads in the Alliance government, or as members of the advisory council. Leia, in fact, is stated to have specifically declined membership on the advisory council in order to contribute to the Alliance’s efforts in other ways. Who can say what her thought process was in the days after the destruction of Alderaan, but if she had told Mothma that she intended to stay on Yavin to watch the Death Star die, or to die herself in the fight against it, who could’ve told her no?

Dodonna was absolutely a valuable asset, but he wasn’t a department head or member of the advisory council, either. His tactical and strategic abilities would certainly have been sorely missed if Yavin had been lost, but at the same time, it was his battle plan, and he may have argued successfully that he needed to stay at Yavin to see it through.

And it’s difficult to argue that “only a handful” were evacuated from the base without knowing how many people were there to start with, or how much the Alliance had in the way of transport capacity. What we see in the final of ANH could’ve just as easily been 1/2 or 1/3 of the total personnel at the base when the evac order came down, a mix of essential personnel needed for the strike and people who drew the short straw when the evac list was being drawn up.

Sentinel677
Sentinel677
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Wasn’t Dodonna the head of the Starfighter Corps for the Rebel Alliance? That is a pretty important position in a military that emphasises star fighters like the Rebel Alliance*. I’d say that would be at least equivalent to a department head in some ways, especially given the state the Rebellion was in circa-Episode IV.

*Wookieepedia says he was double-hatting as head of the Logistics and Supply Corps as well, which would make him even more important. I don’t recall reading that in primary sources myself though.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Sentinel677

The source for that is the Essential Guide to Warfare (see pages 154 & 157). I have to say, I’m not a huge fan of the EGtW as a source; I think it reads too much like The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Space Warfare. Yes, there are some good ideas in there, but a lot of it is overly simplistic. This statement about Dodonna’s responsibilities in the Alliance is a case in point; you can’t put that many hats on one person and expect them to do all of them well. Supply & logistics for the Alliance was a shoe-string operation, and there was never enough to go around, so the position required constant work just to get even close to staying abreast of it.. Add starfighter operations for an entire galaxy AND commanding the ground operations of the main Alliance base (including regular relocation to avoid detection) and that’s a lot of very important balls to keep in the air, with major consequences if one of them drops.

Proton
Proton
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

You understand taht you just insulted Fractal, because he was one of EGtW creators?

otnesse
otnesse
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

In McNeill’s defense, Proton, Fractal was more of a contributor of the EGtW than a creator since they mostly used his artwork. And besides, I’m pretty sure McNeill is referring more to the actual lore aspects rather than the artwork with his complaints about the source (I mean, it’s not like he mocked the Bellator’s stats, for example).

That bit aside, some Legends EU writers/sourcebooks tend to screw up at times. Take for example the whole deal with the Corporate Sector Authority and the sourcebooks relating to that, especially in relation to the Empire. Do you really think the Empire, which was supposed to be depicted as a totalitarian state in all but name, would even TOLERATE the existence of the Corporate Sector being independent of it, let alone expanding its borders and letting it do its own thing with nothing to ask for it in return barring maybe a small yearly tax? I mean, come on! The Empire was formed by a megalomaniacal space wizard who even in Legends would have loathed to let the Empire outlive him (hence why he resorted to cloning), and was even indicated in the lore to have shut down the Senate specifically to consolidate power. Somehow, I’m extremely doubtful a guy of that type could even stomach the idea of the Corporate Sector Authority having free reign in any way, and more likely than not would have just genocided that organization, sort of like what Geldoblame did with Azha when it delayed ore shipments in Baten Kaitos. And heck, the CSA pretty much existed OOU as an excuse to have the audience root for Han Solo and Chewbacca as they engaged in what amounts to a bank robbery, meaning the CSA pretty much was the Trade Federation from the Prequel Trilogy before such was a concept. Heck, forget the Legends EU, sometimes Lucas screws up with his films (the whole “no military or war in the republic for a millennia” thing from Attack of the Clones comes to mind. That, and Palpatine basically trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side by trying to goad him into murdering Palpatine in cold blood, and that was despite his resolute intention to rule the Empire for all eternity.).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  otnesse

A book can have excellent artwork – which the EGtW certainly does – and still be flawed in other ways. I wouldn’t be here if I had any question about Fractal’s abilities as an artist.

As far as the CSA, it’s important to remember that the CSA is sourced in the original Brian Daley novels, which predated even WEG. Han Solo at Star’s End was the second EU novel published ever (in 1979. Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was published in 1978). There wasn’t a lot of data on Star Wars to work with back then, but Daley did an amazing job with what he had. WEG used him as a source for Chewbacca’s bowcaster, the Z-95 Headhunter, the Victory-Class Star Destroyer, swoops, etc, etc.

And within the larger context of the SWU, semi-autonomous corporations under the Empire are not uncommon, or even rare, so long as they stay loyal to the Empire. Kuat Drive Yards, Seinar Fleet Systems, etc, were all major corporations who supplied the Imperial war machine. Exercising control over the entire galaxy doesn’t mean you literally have to own and micro-manage all of it; getting it to not fight you back and pay you taxes is all that a canny ruler really requires.

otnesse
otnesse
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well, Star’s End certainly didn’t have much to work on, now that you mention it. That being said, I think it being hands off from the Empire was a WEG invention, at least that’s what Wookieepedia seemed to indicate.

And I get that semi-autonomous corporations exist under the Empire. Heck, even Republican forms of government/democracies sort of have that kind of view (it’s illegal, for example, to have corporations sell products to an engaged enemy, for example, being marked under treason, and actually at worst qualifying under war crimes for more destructive weapons). My problem is that the franchise was supposed to portray the Empire as a more totalitarian form of government, and letting the CSA be to its own devices with minimal, if any supervision or control doesn’t really work under a totalitarian regime. I know the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, heck, even Adolf Hitler would not have tolerated that level of autonomy, opting to either control them directly by the party, or otherwise have party hacks installed to be in charge to allow for more indirect control.

And in case you were curious, when I mentioned Geldoblame earlier, I was referring to this jerk from Baten Kaitos: https://youtu.be/xtO-AHuEhJc?t=370 Long story short, the Alfard Empire’s mining community of Azha was overworked by his (yes, Geldoblame, despite his attire and facial features, is in fact a guy) regime in mining ore deposits without rest. They repeatedly tried to petition him to relax the harsh labor statutes, Geldoblame and his regime ignored the petitions, and they decided to just cut back their shipments of ore to bluntly send the message to him. Geldoblame ordered for their extermination because of it, in order to “spark up a little motivation”, even sending his personal hit squad to ensure the task was done. Lyude tried to talk some sense into Geldoblame, but Geldoblame not only would hear nothing of it, but instead turned against Lyude in a fury, effectively engaging him in a power-game rant about what his role as Emperor entails, meaning Geldoblame’s pretty much the type to constantly own and micromanage his empire. Basically, if Palpatine were merely Hitler, Geldoblame’s closer to Stalin, or heck, even Lenin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, he’s THAT heinous of a tyrant (heck, Azha wasn’t even his WORST crime in that game, either, as he also tried to unseal Malpercio, a death god). Trust me, compared to Geldoblame, Palpatine’s a boy scout.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  otnesse

I’m not seeing your point. Hitler DID tolerate that degree of autonomy. Look up “Nazi Economy” on Wikipedia; the article is quite specific that Hitler used a largely crony-capitalist model. In particular, this:

“The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[10] Cartels and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[11]”

People may argue about Wikipedia’s reliability as a source, but that one paragraph cites two different published sources.

There is also mention of the various Nazi business interests benefiting from slave labor (something like 25% of the workforce). Suppressing trade unions and making use of slavery loopholes like indentured servitude or wage slavery is certainly possible in the Empire without the Emperor needing to micromanage the entire economy. He wouldn’t even have to suppress striking workers himself; just turn a blind eye while the company sends in their own private security force to bust heads.

otnesse
otnesse
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Regarding the Nazi economy, the Ludwig von Mises institute would beg to differ there, as would lksamuels.com, regarding tolerating that kind of autonomy. Heck, even Albert Speer, one of Hitler’s high ranking Nazi officials (I believe he was the Minister of Armaments and War Production), indicated Hitler didn’t tolerate that kind of autonomy at all (otherwise, I’m pretty sure Speer would not have said regarding the party members placed in charge of various armament companies that many of those in charge of war production were Nazi appointees who knew nothing about their industry and effectively condemn the Nazis for this.). Sure, it wasn’t as much micromanagement as say, the Soviets or Communists, where they believe on having the Communist Party directly own the means of production in a very open manner, but it’s still owning the means of production via another means and micromanaging in another form. Heck, even Lenin advocated that they sell the Capitalists the rope they can use to hang themselves, so technically, even the Communists have that kind of relationship with companies outside the USA.

That’s in fact my main problem with the Corporate Sector Authority bit, especially considering the Empire is supposed to be a totalitarian state. Sure, stuff such as TaggeCo or Kuat Drive Yards, you could argue would have fit the Nazi model regarding indirect control, I’ll give you that (though that being said, even America has that kind of relationship with the arms industry. Last I checked, it’s still illegal to sell American arms to al Qaeda, for example). But that’s a completely different issue from the CSA, where the Empire literally left the CSA alone to its own devices, only requiring a yearly tax at most. The Imperial Handbook even states regarding the matter, and I quote, “The Empire approves of corporate competition, and even established the Corporate Sector where transparent mercantilism could occur without interference.” Last I checked, that statement sounded far closer to Adam Smith’s philosophy of Free Markets than, say, the National Socialist ethos (let alone Communist ethos or various other totalitarian ethos). When I think of totalitarian leaders, to use fictional examples, Geldoblame comes far closer to matching totalitarian with his tantrum over Azha than Palpatine does.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  otnesse

I’m going to need a bit more evidence than “this source begs to differ.” And who said anything about actual autonomy? This is very much a “do as I say and you get to keep making money; screw that up and you will provide a very vivid object lesson to your replacement.” For all of its seeming autonomy, the Corporate Sector would’ve had no chance against a full-up Imperial invasion; all of their heavy ships were old military surplus (Victory-Class SDs and Invincible-Class Dreadnoughts), so the Direx Board knows better than to screw up a good thing.

And I’m not sure where the Imperial Handbook got its information, but all previous EU sources have the Corporate Sector predating the Empire. The most detailed is the Han Solo & the Corporate Sector Sourcebook from WEG, which devotes two full chapters to the history and structure of the Corporate Sector.

Just because Palpatine doesn’t fit your definition of the ideal despot doesn’t make him or his relationship with the CSA unrealistic.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Doesn’t the Corporate Sector seem much more like Hong Kong than anything under the NSDAP? It’s a free market haven that maintains some special privileges under a much larger and stronger authoritarian power due to a quirk of history, but doesn’t have real sovereignty because the overlord dictates its foreign policy.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

That’s a good analogy, certainly as good a one as we’re going to get when comparing the real world with a space opera fictional one. Considering that a cut of the profits and products of the Corporate Sector goes straight to Palpatine and the Empire (bypassing the sector and regional governments), he has a vested interest in letting them run their businesses. The only potential obstacle is to what degree Sith ideology plays into their economic theory, as in, whether their worldview requires top-down centralized planning from a single authority, or if it is content to simply profit from nominally autonomous corporations that serve its interests (and breaking them and bringing them to heel if they forget their place).

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well, it’s certainly a better analogy than how the NSDAP ran things with businesses, I’ll give you both that. Still not entirely sure about that, especially when, technically, if Star Wars and History is to be believed, Mao’s China formed part of the basis for the Rebel Alliance, meaning that if anything, the Old Republic’s interaction is similar to Mao’s china with Hong Kong (and New Republic’s more closer to the Soviet model considering they constantly insist on boycotting the Corporate Sector Authority).

Besides, Lucas isn’t a big fan of capitalism as his interview with Charlie Rose indicates, and he even implies he was fond of the Soviet model, at least regarding entertainment.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

The fact that “Star Wars and History” equates a revolution intending to reestablish freedom and a liberal democracy with a revolution intending to establish a totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat tells me that it is not to be believed, unless this is you extrapolating an equation that isn’t actually found in the source material.

And I fail to see why Lucas’ personal views on capitalism in the real world have any bearing here. The Soviet Union made excellent use of propaganda in film, especially for internal purposes, and it’s not surprising that a film maker would appreciate the story-telling techniques used to convey a message.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, had a lot of things come up (not to mention when I was communicating with you, my primary computer was down thanks to a fried power source that took two weeks to replace, so I couldn’t rely on emails). In any case, I’ve emailed lksamuels and asked them for the Speer quote’s source, so you’ll probably get a source on at least the Speer quote sooner or later. I can also direct you to a few links in the meantime making explicit how Hitler did not tolerate that kind of autonomy. For starters:

*http://www.lksamuels.com/?cat=4 (and until I get a source from lksamuels regarding that Speer quote, this is the closest I can give as a source).
*https://mises.org/library/national-socialism (and bear in mind, Ludwig von Mises grew up in Nazi Germany, so he’d actually know first-hand about what went down).

And I’m pretty sure the Imperial Sourcebook meant the Corporate Sector Authority rather than the Corporate Sector itself.

As far as whether or not Palpatine fit my definition or not, it’s not even my definition, it’s THE definition, and it’s not even the ideal despot, as there have been plenty of instances in history where they behaved in exactly that manner I described. Just look at Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Che Guevara, Fidel Castro Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh, and the like, and you’ll notice that how they treated businesses and the equivalent of the CSA is not even close to similar to how Palpatine treated the CSA. And that’s not even beginning to mention the likes of Adolf Hitler If anything, they utterly LOATHED to let the businesses have even an inch of free markets, and the second they do even one minor thing that wasn’t what they wanted, they execute them plain and simple (and that’s assuming they don’t just execute them on a mere whim). Heck, Stalin was willing to have people at the very least arrested if not shot to death just because they failed to provide a Mozart recording to him on time, just as one example.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

This is a False Analogy Fallacy. You’re asserting that despots must behave according to a predetermined cookie-cutter pattern of behavior, and are completely incapable of acting outside of it. All of the names you list are ideologues, whether Communist or Fascist. You have no factual basis to assert that a Sith Emperor must behave in the same fashion as historical ideologues, as opposed to being a realist with a pragmatic approach to power whose connection to the Force provides him with a much deeper understanding of human (or alien, as the case may be) motivation and how to manipulate it. If the Sith ethos is personal power by any means necessary, then any sort of ideology – whether a class struggle or race war – will simply be another tool for them to use to achieve power, not any sort of guiding principle.

Further, you’re ignoring the fact that, whatever Nazis / Fascists may have said before gaining power, the reality once they were in power was quite different. Here’s a couple quotes from your own sources:

“Mussolini also had to both condemn and placate industrialists and business leaders, the same ones he had rioted against during his organized labor strikes.”

“The difference between the systems, wrote Mises, is that the German pattern ‘maintains private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.’ But in fact the government directs production decisions, curbs entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determines wages and interest rates by central authority.”

In the Soviet Union, the landowners and business magnates were stripped of their property and sent to the gulags, while their businesses were handed over to party apparatchiks. In Nazi Germany, once the Nazis were in power, business leaders generally kept their positions so long as they remained loyal to Hitler.

On a final note, while all the dictators you list had their beginnings as revolutionaries and street-level rabble-rousers, Palpatine was nothing of the sort. So, if all dictators are to conform to the same cookie-cutter behavioral pattern, how does this explain Palpatine?

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Come to think of it, there was definitely at least enough timeskip to fix R2 up between Luke/Chewie & Han/Wedge/Sole Surviving Y-wing Crew’s return and the ceremony. That *might’ve* been enough of a return window for personnel emergency-jumped into a nearby system (and braced to *really* run when/if Yavin went up).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

I had a similar thought, but I wasn’t sure how to justify it. Considering the cost in fuel and flight hours – plus the fact that the Alliance would be almost immediately abandoning Yavin IV anyway – it seems rather wasteful to bring them all back just for an awards ceremony…

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well, retrieving the strike-coordination staff who *didn’t* wind up getting vaped for the cause was probably justification enough for detaching at least a transport…and now that I mull it further, perhaps (a portion of?) the evac fleet was using the gas giant for cover, detected DS1’s demise & figured they could squeeze in a 15-minute Morale Event before hauling ass.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

That’s fair, and works within the context of what we’re discussing.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Or perhaps Tarkin had reason to order radio (holonet?) silence from the Death Star before departing for Yavin. Perhaps he didn’t want it known among the Imperial fleet that the Rebels were there for fear that some other local fleet asset or independent task force would show up first, conduct a conventional bombardment of the moon, and claim all the credit for his work. If Rebel informers within Imperial intelligence could confirm that the wider Empire wasn’t immediately aware of the whole Yavin debacle, they could reasonably believe that they had a bit more time to stay on Yavin and conduct an orderly evacuation before one of the Death Star survivors made it back to an Imperial fleet base.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

I think radio silence is certainly plausible, as is your reasoning behind it, but somehow I don’t see the Alliance just sitting around waiting for word that the Empire wasn’t coming after them after all. Intel like that would take a bit to make it through the pipeline all the way up to Alliance Intel command on Yavin, and until they got it, they’d have to expect and plan for the worst-case scenario.

Now, I /can/ see a radio silence order from Tarkin being a major contributor in giving the Alliance time to evacuate. With Tarkin dead and the Death Star destroyed, anybody with knowledge of the Death Star’s intended destination would be waiting for Tarkin to break radio silence, then would eventually try to contact him repeatedly with no answer, and then eventually send an expeditionary force to his last known location. And then somewhere in there, Vader would show up at the nearest Imperial base in a damaged TIE x1.

The upshot is that the Empire would take a bit to sort out what happened, and would be relatively complacent that the situation was in hand up until they found out the Death Star had blown up. That would give the Alliance a much larger window to evacuate than they would think they had, and would only find out later through the Intel pipeline that no one had even gotten close to catching them.

Waittt OKon
Waittt OKon
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

How do we know which is more accurate in contextualizing travel times: the maps made available online or the classic series of 6 films and their production notes? I am appalled if pre-production work for any of the movies did not involve a conversion chart, calculator, pen and octant.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Waittt OKon

Honestly, considering how haphazard development of the EU proved to be, I’d be very surprised if anyone thought that far ahead. From what I understand, Lucas was relatively hands-off with WEG, only telling them that they couldn’t do anything in detail on the Clone Wars. WEG then developed the core framework of the hyperspace route & multiplier system which either shaped or influenced everything subsequent to it up until Disney purged the EU (to make way for a new, different, even less well-thought-out EU, but I digress). Disney doesn’t appear to have announced an out-and-out change of the system, but neither do they seem to feel particularly bound by it, either by the films directors or the story group.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

At least there’s Leeland Chee and a holocron continuity database this time around. Progress?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

Hopefully. I just don’t get the impression Darth Maus pays as much attention to him as they should.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I do have to wonder what share of the *onscreen* technical kriffups were directorially imposed on the SG, but stuff like the super-duper crystal TLs certainly strikes me as extraneous wank-fiat.

Speaking of which: while I realize Disneyboot animation is about on the same tech-credibility level as WWII flicks featuring Popeye, the ‘Resistance’ season finale caps off with a partly-submerged-for-the-whole-season depot/space station sloooowly cruising up to minimum lightspeed-jump distance from the planet…and a Resurgent drops in to start shooting at it for roughly a minute before said jump is made. With more/less nil damage beyond shield degradation. Granted, said scene involved a bare handful of bow guns, but srsly: between this & TLJ, not seeing a great deal of backup for the kyberturbos’ fluff hype.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

Extra armor?

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  Proton

is sensor Dome is ISD standard then this might be a battlecruiser size ball park
And the Bulge in the front might in IMO be related to logistical purposes

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

The dome looks smaller on the this bridge than the one in the ISD bridge

Cdr. Rajh
Cdr. Rajh
2 years ago

Wow, the 4th image looks so terrifyingly epic! I’d hate to be staring that down in any ship short of another dreadnought or battlecruiser.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago

That main reactor dome lends the beast some ominous extra heft in those two near-prow-on shots. Plus, neatly-blended bow missile tubes & guidance aerials.