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Aswd
Aswd
3 months ago

It’s also got the iconic ISD1 coms array

Belisarius
Belisarius
3 months ago

If the Empire had had half the creativity of Mr. Sponge, it would still be around.

DarthCatius
DarthCatius
3 months ago
Reply to  Belisarius

I don’t think creativity was ever the Empire’s problem, more overconfidence… 😉

markov
markov
1 month ago
Reply to  DarthCatius

Overconfidence is the most dangerous form of carelessness
(cargo of doom fortune cookie)

Aswd
Aswd
3 months ago
Reply to  Belisarius

The imperial fleet was designed to fight enemies like the CIS or something big. Large turbo-lasers on star-destroyers are not for shooting X-wings

DarthCatius
DarthCatius
3 months ago

The Tyrant is now my 2nd favourite ship. 🙂

Jango Fett
Jango Fett
3 months ago

This thing is awesome it is like a victory class but a battlecruiser

Darth Nick
Darth Nick
4 months ago

Just been checking this beasty out on ArtStation! Me likey! Now one of my favourite Star Wars ships and Fractal models!

P.S. @Fractal Is the subscription service to this site now discontinued? Not getting email notifications at all now? Plus subscription button seems to have disappeared?! 🙁 Sorry to bother you on this, but I do like to know when anyone has replied to a comment.

(Forget above, seems to be working again now)

Arlen L Smith
Arlen L Smith
8 months ago

Shouldn’t this be a Battlecruiser? It looks like about 2800 meters long.

A_Smol_Boi
A_Smol_Boi
6 months ago
Reply to  Arlen L Smith

It’s something like 4.6 kilos

Barbarossa41
Barbarossa41
8 months ago

Why can I not unsee this as an Inquisitor roto-saber?

InSanic
InSanic
8 months ago
Reply to  Barbarossa41

Damn you, Filoni!

Zhiliang Tay
Zhiliang Tay
11 months ago

So I guess this is the AEGIS cruiser of the Star Wars universe. God I wish it was canon. Excellent design!

David Cox
David Cox
11 months ago

What’s the crew and troop capacity?

LazyReader
LazyReader
1 year ago

How do you service the Missile ring?

Liam Cody
Liam Cody
10 months ago
Reply to  LazyReader

I would assume you would just walk around it and fix what you had to

Tanner Redland
Tanner Redland
1 year ago

You know if take out the missile ring and fill out the gap they take up you would have a good light cruiser for the old republic.

chimeric oncogene
chimeric oncogene
8 months ago
Reply to  Tanner Redland

This thing is 4 kilometers long. 🙂

AssertorClassDreadnought
AssertorClassDreadnought
8 months ago

Exactly. Light cruiser probably is around the destroyer range in Star Wars. In case you are interested, here is my system for ship classification. It deviates a bit from the Anaxes War College system, but it is still similar:

1. Fighters, Freighters and civilian ships: 0-100 metres, like the (stupid) GR-75
2. Corvette: 100-200 metres, like the CR-90
3. Frigate: 200-500 metres, like the Lancer frigate
4. Destroyer 500-900 metres, like the Victory Star-Destroyer
5. Cruiser/Star Destroyer 900-2000 metres, like the Star Destroyer, or MC line
6. Battlecruiser: 2000-4000 metres, like the Allegiance
7. Battleship: 4000-6000 metres, like the Praetor(?) or Maelstrom(?)
8. Dreadnought: 6000+ metres, like the Assertor

I’m interested to hear if you think you would tweak my system slightly, like changing the lengths, or removing categories. I would also be interested to hear if you don’t like a length based system and show me one of your own.

Matthew
Matthew
8 months ago

Similar to my system, although the Lancer is closer to a corvette I believe. My head canon from the EU before the prequels were released was that the Victory, being a common (Star) Destroyer during the Clone Wars, became the origin of the term “Star Destroyer” being applied to everything wedge shaped. The average galactic citizen, having no idea of ship classification, started referring to the bigger ships, such as the Imperator, as Star Destroyers, despite being better classified as a Star Cruiser (large, multi-role ships). My head canon often throws out much of canon though, usually in an attempt to rationalize the universe more than one should, so take it for what it is worth.

markov
markov
1 month ago

I love your ship classification aside from the fact that you call the gr-75 stupid…

OriginalSchmill
OriginalSchmill
1 year ago

You are now my favorite artist.

UnKnownGatekeeper
UnKnownGatekeeper
1 year ago

I noticed that this one doesn’t have the hypermatter annihilation reactor bulge typical of Imperial ships. Is the reactor just smaller on this one? is it in the interior or the ship? Or did i just miss something?

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago

The ship is of Republic origin, it incorporates elements of the Mandator-series, Venator and Acclamator and all these don’t have a reactor bulge either so it’s most likely a design choice appropriate to the era it was designed.
On the other hand the aft-most part of the hull is spacious enough that it can be inferred that the reactor is completely inside it.

everett
everett
1 year ago

i think it would have a smaller reactor because the main weapons, which are missiles don’t need nearly as much power to use them as it would a octupole barrette turbo-lasers on a star destroyer.

Stewart Orr
Stewart Orr
1 year ago

Hi Fractalsponge
May I respectfully request permission to use your work to act as reference as I intend to build a 1 2700 model of your amazing missile cruiser Tyrant

Respectfully yours
Stewart Orr

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Stewart Orr

Sends a link on this

James Peebles
James Peebles
1 year ago
Reply to  Stewart Orr

As long as you don’t use Fractal’s work for commercial purposes, using it will not breach any copyright laws, therefore, there isn’t anything stopping you from using this work to make a model for yourself.

markov
markov
1 month ago
Reply to  James Peebles

Mr. Fractal said he wanted people to cite him on it though

Stewart Orr
Stewart Orr
1 year ago

Amazing awesome are there any other words to describe it

Arisentactica
Arisentactica
1 year ago

Great job once again Fractalsponge!! Would you be okay with me using this is a fanfiction I’m cooking up Fractal? It’s a really cool design and I’d love to put it in the story with your blessing. Do you have the crew numbers for it or would someone have to come up with them?

ThatPersonFromTheThing
ThatPersonFromTheThing
1 year ago

Would L O V E to see this thing in action, to have it be the main ship in a series tackling a variety of combat scenarios, to use it in a mod for Empire at War.

DinDjarin
DinDjarin
1 year ago

its playable in Empire At War Yoden Mod, with the Empire

HardwarJo
HardwarJo
1 year ago

I like it. It’s a lot bigger than I thought it would be. I was picturing a slightly sub Imperator missile cruiser, but that’s basically the Victor I. This Missile battlecruiser is much cooler

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago

Gotta say it, this ship is rapidly becoming my favorite fanon Star Wars ship design, possibly even beating out the Legator, Proclamator and Valiant-class Star Destroyer.
Almost solely because Fractal managed to turn it into such a fine mix of deadly yet aesthetic looking murder wedge which can easily be adopted for headcanons, stories and fantasies involving both the Republic and the Empire.

Potatospy59
Potatospy59
1 year ago

This ship is beautiful! i could just imagine it sitting at the back of a battle, star destroyers up the front, shelling the life out of enemy capital ships, even though it would make for a pretty good firework show if it went up.

Jacob
Jacob
1 year ago

What are the full specs for the Tyrant-class Missile Cruiser. Im making a rp server and someone asked about the Tyrant-class. Specs include: Crew count, Fighter Count, Size, Weapon count, etc.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob

Plz look down

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago

She’s become a true beauty. Truly love this design and how it blends late-Republic and early-Empire aesthetics. The 18th image shows clearly how its hull form has some Venator- as well as Mandator-influences (the gaps in the sides and the prominent ridge on the top). The small stubby rear-fin also looks like a shortened version of the one both the Acclamator and Venator have.

Scott K
Scott K
1 year ago

Awesome work, definitely be a bad day for an unshielded planet with that missile complement pointed at it

Jean-Luc Martel
Jean-Luc Martel
1 year ago

holy shit… what is the weapon compliment on this???

Azure
Azure
1 year ago

By my count

DBY-827 Dual Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (48)
Quad Turbolaser Turrets (36)
Quad Point Defense Laser Cannons (64)
Heavy Laser Cannons (24)
Concussion Missile Tubes (696)

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

I must have a bad eye for detail or something because I fail to find the Quad PD cannons on the model. I’ve found some of the Quad Turbos yet not all 36 of them but none of the PDs.
Does she have any ventral weapons to defend against attacks from below?

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Sephiroth0812

Yes she does

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

As in the ventral mounts

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  Sephiroth0812

Sephiroth0812

Well when I was looking it originally I saw some quad emplacements that looked to small to be turbolasers so I was thinking that they might be PD emplacements but went back and looked at it and I think they are actually turbolasers and I just saw it wrong.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

Here is the Official Count
48×2 70TT HTL
14×4 200GT MTL
92×2 PD mounts

696 missile tubes with any number/mix of missile types

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Isn’t the MTL count in this stat table a little low for a ship this big? Or is that another throwback to the Venator?
But well, if it doesn’t have any Quad PD mounts then obviously I can’t find them no matter how close I look, lol.
And of course the missile launchers are just imposing. I dunno if the CIS had anything in their arsenal that could have directly challenged this beast one on one.

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  Sephiroth0812

Most of their ships could if they were able to get within broadside range since that would render the missile launchers useless.

A bulwark class battlecruiser could challenge it, as could a malevolence class.

A providence may be able to challenge it assuming could get in to close for it to use it’s missile launchers as the providence class could probably do some serious damage to it with it’s 100 proton torpedo tubes along with it’s massive fighter compliment.

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

Huh? The Tyrant can’t use its missile launchers up close but the Providence can with its torpedoes?
Going just by energy weapon main battery, one Tyrant is worth 6 Venators (6 x 8 = 48) so that’ll be ouch-time for a Providence, not to mention the Tyrant’s shields are probably much stronger than those of a Venator due to a better, stronger main reactor.
A Bulwark I could actually see making some progress as they’re described to be tanky with decent speed and a Subjugator-class (which the Malevolence is a member of) would probably wreck the Tyrant.
Speaking like this I get reminded why I don’t like the “Tyrant”-moniker when describing the service of this ship class under the Republic because the name doesn’t fit. Not to mention the propaganda value it’ll have for the CIS if the Republic actually would use this naming. As Fractal suggested Sagittor (as in the Archer in latin) would fit the usual Republic name scheme, but just using a headcanoned name would have two thirds of the readership not knowing which ship is meant.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Sephiroth0812

I found it. I shall this one the Sagittor

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
1 year ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

By all means do that. It is a fanon ship design alright, but there’s no downside of it having some fleshed out backstory, including a different class name while in Republic service. Has canon reference with the “Imperator-“/”Imperial-“class issue as well and Sagittor just fits it in my view.

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  Sephiroth0812

Sephiroth0812

Well I’m assuming it probably could based upon the fact that the torpedo tubes were most likely used during the battle of coruscant which involved extremely close capital ship combat.

And while the Tyrant does have a stronger energy weapon compliment it does have restricted firing arcs due to the circular missile bays not to mention no real ventral weaponry.

The Tyrant also to my knowledge does not carry fighters, the Providence however carries over 200 fighters half of them are vulture droids which carry concussion missiles and the other half are tri-droids which also carry concussion missiles and discord missiles which release buzz droids.

And yeah I agree with the name Tyrant sounds more like a imperial designation as opposed to the Latin designation usually given to republic ships.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

Let’s not forget that SW missiles are ludicrously agile, if fairly vulnerable to ECM-in fact, a Tyrant-style missile platform might actually be wiser to engage large targets with the active ring portion facing *away* so said targets don’t fortuitously zap its launches with TL/ion fire. As for small-craft discrepancy, that would be what its Venator/Secutor escort could fill-besides, I sorely doubt CIS droids handle ordnance anywhere near the yield of a Tyrant or Victory’s anti-capital torps.

Jean-Luc Martel
Jean-Luc Martel
1 year ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

what about small craft/fighters? the one hanger I can see is really small so I’m guessing no more than 2 maybe 4 squadrons of TIEs? maybe 2-4 shuttles/gunboats?

Azure
Azure
1 year ago

Wonderful ship Fractal, I didn’t really like the original design all that much but I quite love your finished version of it and not only does it have tons of missiles but turbolasers to. Both quad turbolasers and dual heavy turbolasers from the looks of it.

I’d be quite intrigued to see the base design/shape turned into more of a cruiser or destroyer I think that’d look interesting, I remember seeing somewhere on here there was a base model but without the missiles and you were talking about maybe turning it into a clone wars era cruiser or something.

Abacus
Abacus
1 year ago

Is this suppose to be 4,100m long? I saw that being said on the SD.net forums, but the ship itself looks to be more along the lines of 2.2~2.4km long.

Cornel
Cornel
1 year ago
Reply to  Abacus

i suggest to rewatch the image with the tyrant and isd for camparison it shows clearly longer than 3km

Road Warrior
Road Warrior
1 year ago

I didnt give this thing a share shake when you first started on it, but, damn, she turned out pretty damn cool in the end! Love to see the full cruiser version down the road…

So what’s next, boss? Btw, have you seen the imperial Nebulon B that E.C. Henry has done? Quite nice with the hangar set up Angelos Karderinis modeled for it too. Those guys have really stepped up their game! They are getting that physical model look down pat.

Road Warrior
Road Warrior
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Cool. Good deal, boss.

Cdr. Rajh
Cdr. Rajh
1 year ago

I think a ship like the Bellator would greatly enjoy the company of one of two of this beauty~!

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago

She’s both wacky and cool at the same time! The lack of auxiliary sublights might make the four huge drives a bit of a target, however.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I mean, sure, drives will always be a target, but having some secondaries might at least offer some mild chance to limp away if it survived the initial attack run. As is, it’s four huge targets that makes it (relatively) easy to hit in a few passes and you are left drifting.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Much like the ‘exposed bridge’ brainbug, I get the distinct impression thruster redundancy (or lack thereof) is one of those ship features that can only be optimized so far depending on the hull plan. Executor/Compellor-style fantails & multiple slightly-separated nozzle banks (as seen on Ex, Bellator & a couple Mon Cals) offer some protection from some angles, but your best bet’s still settling the matter or jumping clear before defenses are compromised that far.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

This is true enough and I’ll concede that point for the moment. But since we are on the topic, some pondering gave me another reason to have secondaries: efficiency outside combat. Perhaps you are just patrolling a star system, even just within orbit; or simply coming in/departing drydock (not going to be the case with the Tyrant, of course, since it’s far too large to fit in one) and you need some maneuvering that conserves fuel more than the lowest output of the main drives could apply, you could power down the primaries and go off only on secondaries.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

Given the existence of Lucrehulk-tonnage freighters, docks fit for multi-klick ships may be relatively common, though I can just about see your point WRT fuel conservation. Battlewagons might just fire up one thruster bank at a time for economy motion.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

For multi-klik warships, I kind of see having a drydock to accompany it to be a huge structural project (unless it’s something already huge, like the Death Stars or Kuat orbital ring) so they’d instead have something that comes to them instead and wraps around it, like some concept art (don’t remember if it was canonized) harness arms that goes around the ISD or even that “tiny” station in EABattlefront II.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

The other option suggested by WEG is to use modular dock segments that can be linked together and reinforced by force fields, ala the ones used on Imperial Navy Deepdocks.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/R/M_Facility_Number_Four

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Mobile modular dock bits & maintenance armatures make sense (and *far* moreso than, say, Supremacy’s exactly-Resurgent-shaped aft divots), but again strike me as something that could use a handy storage point; as such, I get the impression orbital rings & similar constructs are fairly common save for most of the Outer Rim and/or off-the-beaten-charts worlds. Which, conveniently enough, hog screentime ’cause we’re following scrappy Rebels and/or secretive Forcemonkeys of sundry denomination.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

The modular dock components were described as peripheral equipment to a deep space mobile support shipyard, so that’s the storage point. Exactly what form it would take, I don’t know.

The ImpSB also mentions Consolidators (not by name, of course) being used as repair and salvage platforms, so depending on how far down these modular dock segments compact, they might be able to carry a few, too.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Hey yeah, that’s a pretty cool concept. Though only 18 for the huge torpedo sphere took me by surprise, it’s barely more modules than what is needed for an ISD

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  PhantomFury

Well, it’s WEG numbers, so take them with a grain of salt.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago

Even without the missile ring (and ‘conventional’ secondary array), that’s one distinctive planform. Digging the Imp-I-style comm antennae, Procurator-ish elongated rear tower & stubby aft fin as design timestamps.

Jack
Jack
1 year ago

I don’t really understand the ring as a functional design choice. Is it something stupid like spinning to reload quickly or is it something like angle of attack? Looks cool but appears totally unnecessary…can someone ‘splain it?

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack

No it’s just in the shape of a circle because it allows the magazine to curve around thus granting it more space for more launches as opposed to having them within the hull itself which wouldn’t allow for as many missiles.

Plus if there was a missile malfunction or explosion the missiles being not attached to the main hull would mean the the ship itself would have the damage it took from any kind of ordnance malfunction limited. Where as if the missiles were inside the main hull the resulting explosion would probably blow the ship in half.

Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

That works. I’ll assume the design includes extra armor or shielding to offset the increased exposure and therefore higher chance of something causing the explosion mentioned above. Looks badass. Great job Fractal!

Proton
Proton
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

You dont want this happen in the first place, i guess.

If this amount of big torpedoes explode, you are right fekkd no matter where is explode, inside or outside.

Great design, espicially love bridge.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I figured there was a reason those bow launchers were placed well away from any of this puppy’s HTLs (which might be fairly volatile in their own right).

Proton
Proton
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

If proton torpedoes actually use antimatter (Proton- antiproton pair) or Thermonuclear shaped charges.

If it is antimatter then it will explode at full charge the sxecond containment field will turn off, if it is thermonuclear charge, then it wont properly explode even on direct hit, so it is almost as safe to have inside ship.

Like i said, i like the design, i imigine this ring rotating like conveyor to increase rate of fire instad of reloading each launcher individually.

Is there any mention on what proton torpedoes actually is?

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  Proton

Proton I can tell you what they are.

Proton Torpedo’s are energized torpedo’s that carry a proton scattering warhead that releases extremely charged protons over a designated area, which basically causes the atoms within the blast radius to tear themselves apart and then dissipates.

They function similar to Thermal Detonators which are basically handheld nukes that explode via thermonuclear fusion reactions and they flat out vaporizes anything in the blast radius but when they explode there’s a blast field around the explosion which contains the explosion to a certain area which can be changed or set, which is why we never see or hear about them blowing up cities or skyscrapers when they explode. The largest blast radius I’ve ever heard for a Thermal Detonator though was a 100 meter’s or 328 feet.

Concussion Missiles which the Tyrant uses though are armor piercing warheads that burrow into a ships hull and then explode releasing a concussive shock wave/sonic boom inside the ships hull. So they probably aren’t to volatile.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Proton

The ring does not move

Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Nope. Internal explosions are bad. Just that they’re more exposed to enemy fire out there. Also wonder if it might be a cool heat sink approach to keep exhaust away from interior, but I don’t know the launch mechanism.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Azure

Alternately, the rings might contain ready magazines and conveyor mechanisms connecting to larger, better protected magazines within the main hull.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’d insist on some extra-stringent safety & reload procedures were that the case. Dunno if torpedo spheres are quite so intrinsically flawed as posited in Hull 721 pt. II (and hotly debated in the SDN commentary thereof), but Tyrant here might have vaguely similar problems if focused on before most of its payload’s safely away.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

My understanding of the Torpedo Sphere was that it had hundreds of individual launchers with really good fire control linkages, not the bay it had in 721.2.

This ship has to have at least /some/ internal magazine stowage for the forward launchers, and considering the number of catastrophic ship losses from magazine detonations in the RW (British Battlecruisers at Jutland, HMS Hood, USS Arizona, etc), stringent safety procedures would either be taken as a given or be the ship’s weakest link. Multiple interlocked blast doors and force fields at the connection point between the main hull and the launcher rings would be a bare minimum.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

For me, there’s a definite sense of The Good Ship Mary Sue all the way back to the middle of 721.1. The character interaction is very entertaining, and ECR’s use of hard tech added a real sense of verisimilitude that’s missing from most official and fan fic, but it never really seemed like the ship / crew were in any serious danger, which is, IMO, essential to the plot.

As far as the Torpedo Sphere, WEG was never particularly clear on the matter. WEG fluff describes torps as effectively unguided (despite what they are seen to do on screen), while the write-up for the ship itself says “coordinates the tube launches.” However, WEG’s weapon stat fire control ratings were essentially just an aggregate representation rather than anything specific, so it could’ve been either/or.

A later addition had the torpedo spheres equipped with specialized anti-shield torps that had limited effectiveness against starships. It’s possible they were something along the lines of the shield-buster torps from Black Fleet Crisis.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

721’s first installment seemed to put enough individuals (and certainly enough of Black Prince’s less-omniskilled squadronmates) at risk for my tastes; II, on the other hand, wound up introducing less formidable opposition & cranking up the occasionally-literal Feats of Hax(R) just enough to make me muse ‘wait, this tooled-up Imp Deuce-Plus is whipping *how* many peer opponents in isolation? Including the one crewed by supposedly equally-elite bastards?’

Current fluff doesn’t seem much better re: the torp spheres; that Haynes manual for the Death Star(s) devotes a couple pages to other superweapons…and claimed the spheres were too large for standard fire-linking. Which seems patently ludicrous for something not *that* much bulkier than most destroyers.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

Meet the new EU, same as the old EU. At this point, it seems apparent that forming a cohesive universe out of this isn’t going to happen through official sources.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

The torpedo sphere concept as of the original WEG is sufficiently flawed that it demands a complete rework. The Essential Guide to Warfare didn’t help by deeming torp spheres valuable enough that on two separate occasions someone would sacrifice a Star Dreadnought to ram one. I’d love to see a Fractal original siege platform (Star Monitor?) built around an oversized V-150 with enough footwork to dodge planetary guns.

Thirded on ECR getting a bit too attached to his merry space band of 300 iq misfits, but I’m still grateful for what we did get.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

WEG’s description of the Torpedo Sphere is all over the place, too. Per the Organization chapter, it’s the centerpiece of the Imperial Navy’s dedicated Bombard Fleets, yet per the ship’s own write-up, only six were ever built.

I agree that the Torpedo Sphere needs a re-work. In broad strokes, I’d suggest:

-Heavy Ion Cannon (providing a disabling option to the shield-buster attack)

-Decent secondary batteries

-More versatility in ordnance loadout, up to and including Exterminatus level warheads.

-A fighter wing (likely bomber-heavy, ala the Assault Wing described elsewhere in the ImpSB)

-A stormtrooper legion, but with greater emphasis on counter-boarding and ground assault (listed troop strength is 8,540 to an ISD’s 9,700, so dedicated space ops troops would be a potential cut).

-Multiple backup shields, ala Mon Cal cruisers (since a TS is likely to spend a lot of time in low orbit soaking up ion cannon fire).

-Another interesting piece of equipment fitted to the Torpedo Sphere is the Two-Wave Gravshock Device – essentially a gravity-based orbital earthquake projector – described in the Custom Ordnance chapter of the Imperial Sourcebook.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Exterminatus warheads? What universe were we in again?

If it were up to me to put together a dedicated Star Monitor, I’d drop the entire torpedo sphere concept and instead prioritize a relatively agile vessel built around a massive spinal ion cannon. The greatest advantage that a ship has over a planet is the ability to dodge, while predicting the trajectory of a planet is child’s play.

You’d also want to strip nonessential functions. Fighter wings and ground troops can be provided by support vessels that hang out of range of planetary batteries until they’re needed, so there’s no need to burden your siege platform with the extra protected volume and mass. If we retain the WEG concept of requiring a substantial dedicated sensor net to detect planetary shield weak spots, I would also prefer to distribute those sensors out to ISR drones launched from a separate support carrier rather than putting the sensors on the actual bombardment vessel. The Star Monitor would end up looking fairly long and thin to minimize its head-on target profile, and might just resemble the Tyrant but with a different primary armament system, or maybe FFG’s Onager class.

On a somewhat separate note, I think Mon Cal redundant shield superiority is kind of a brainbug. There’s no free lunch in warship design, and I’d wager that Kuati vessels are substantially better per credit and per ton because the Kuatis simply have much more experience building capital ships along with access to more resources/talent/computing power being the primary design bureau of a galactic polity. If Mon Cal shields are overperforming on a relative scale, that means that they are sacrificing something else. That sacrifice could be in either firepower, mobility, or stamina, likely all three.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

I’m well aware this is the Star Wars universe, and that multiple variations of planet-killing weaponry exist, but few terms define the concept so succinctly as does WH40K’s Exterminatus.

Your proposed ship is fine in principle, but it presupposes that the physics of doing battle with an armed and shielded planet will be susceptible to long-ranged sniper attacks. Fractal just recently mentioned that planetary based shields have huge advantages w/r/t absorbing and dissipating energy, and the v-150 was always described as outranging even the heaviest capital ship guns, save superlasers. Your dispersed sensor grid will run into issues with ECM and fighter interception that would be greatly reduced by placing the sensors on a well-defended platform.

It’s far more likely that the physics of shield-busting attacks necessitate going down to low-orbit and duking it out with the planetary defenses while simultaneously scanning for exploitable weaknesses in the shield itself. Which was one of the Torpedo Sphere’s advantages; it had one of the strongest Hull ratings in the game. All it needed was better shields and secondary & defensive armament to be able to go in against a planet’s fixed defenses all on its own. I mentioned the Mon Cal shields because both have their source in the WEG universe, where Mon Cal shields were the best in the game, and far more resistant to having their shields stripped away than would ships mounting standard shields. The point is that, down in low orbit at slow speeds and being targeted by v-150’s and who knows what else, a Torpedo Sphere wouldn’t be nearly agile enough to avoid attacks, and would thus need to be able to shrug off the hits and still do its job.

And I also question the insistence that overspecialized platforms are the solution to all of space combat’s tactical problems, to the point of becoming one-trick banthas. You’re talking about a ship that’s only good for taking down shields, but requires support craft for almost every other function. Adding some versatility means the ship itself can take on more missions; rather than being capable only of penetrating planetary shields, it can defend itself against capital ships and fixed defenses (orbital battle platforms), provide fire support with conventional munitions or more exotic effects (magnetic bombards, bio weapons, anti-life radiation, etc), or disable ground defenses (using the heavy ion cannon I mentioned adding) while using its onboard ground troops and fighter wing to secure said defenses relatively intact. Why not design a platform that can handle all those missions itself so that the Star Destroyers are freed up to maneuver and perform superiority ops as needed rather than being tied to the planetary assault?

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’d say specialized 1-or-2-trick-dewback platforms make sense for a galactic hegemon that can pony up for the dedicated capability & support screen alike. A “why not both?” answer to the question of torp battery vs. spinal-mount sniper-monitor also seems not particularly beyond the Empire’s pale (unless, of course, high command just decides to throw moar dreadnoughts at the problem). Given the aforementioned difficulties in denting planetary shields while weathering/reducing fixed defenses, outsourcing small-craft requirements strikes me as one of the easier means of focusing a siege platform’s resources toward said tasks.

TBH, I’m under the impression torpedo sphere/star monitor-type stuff is what you’d throw at worlds with enough dosh for a planetary shield & moderate defense grid at best, as opposed to systems with orbital platforms & sector-defense naval presence up the yin-yang.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

It’s an important distinction, I think, that apart from a superlaser, all (both) described methods of penetrating planetary shields are more about exploiting weak spots than they are about brute-forcing your way through. The exploitable weak spots are actually just brief power anomalies or energy fluctuations that rarely exceed more than a 20% drop in power, and even a successful shield-buster torpedo attack only creates a 6-meter-diameter hole that only lasts for a few microseconds. Any stand-off weapon is going to have serious issues reacting to and exploiting something so temporary.

As to the other, it’s also noteworthy that, in the universe in which they were created, the only other “official” capital ship larger than the Torpedo Sphere was the Executor. A heavily defended system as you describe would likely require multiple torpedo spheres being escorted by a dozen or more ISDs, with the ISDs and smaller escorts doing the grunt work of engaging the system defenses to clear the way for the TSs to get to low orbit and go to work on the shield.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Since torpedoes travel at distinctly slow velocities compared to energy fire, it’s going to be a lot easier for the defending shield technicians to respond by reallocating output towards the targeted area and possibly put up redundant panels underneath. That’s a lot tougher when incoming rounds are moving at c.

I also think that the concept of relying on shielding and even armor to take hits from planetary batteries while slugging it out in low orbit seems distinctly misguided. A torpedo sphere isn’t that much more volumious than a line destroyer, and can’t hope to survive even a handful of hits from something like a W-165. If you’re up against ground batteries of that caliber, your only hope is to stay at extreme range and not take hits. While a V-150 or W-165 is going to be able to retain destructive yield at extreme range, that’s all for nothing if they can’t land shots. The natural next step is to offload nonessential functions like large hangar bays to maximize agility.

We need to remember that the goal for any planetary siege is to deplete the planet’s hypermatter reserves for shield projection as fast as possible while using/expending as few fleet assets as possible. Maybe you might get a little more efficiency if you’re willing to sit in low orbit, but that just doesn’t seem like a risk worth taking when the planet is also extremely well armed. The superheavy spinal ion cannon concept is also scalable, with lighter variants built on frigate hulls, all the way up to a platform based on a Bellator rather than having a one-size fits all torp sphere. Such a monitor would have some secondary batteries just like the Tyrant, and shielding proportionate to its size, but survivability through agility is paramount.

If you wanted to supplement long ranged energy fire with warheads for maximum energy density, I’d much rather employ stand-off warheads deployed from long range arsenal ships or even just Star Galleons than risk an extremely expensive manned platform in a point-blank slugging match. Losing a handful of ISR drones to fighter sorties (that also force the defenders to momentarily open the shield) is also infinitely preferable to losing 60,000 personnel and an extremely expensive battle station if your sphere goes down.

In regards to generalist versus specialist platforms, I definitely don’t advocate for the superiority of extreme specialization in conventional battles, but sieges by definition require specialized hardware, from the helepolis of antiquity to 20th century railway guns. A monitor also should not be expected to join the battle line in a conventional fleet engagemnent, just as the RN didn’t send out the Lord Clive class monitors out with the Grand Fleet before Jutland despite having battleship guns. You wouldn’t even need to allocate front line combatants to support a bombard squadron either. Light auxilliaries like the Ton Falk to provide fighter and sensor drone coverage should do fine.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Okay, a lot to reply to here, and I’m AFK, but I’ll do my best…

I feel I should clarify that the torpedoes do not bring the shield down; they just create a brief pinhole in the shield which can be exploited by the TS’ heavy turbolasers in order to take shots at the shield generator itself. Since the “hole” lasts only a few microseconds, coordination is essential, and the turbolasers are most likely already firing even before the torps detonate. My suggestion of adding ion cannon to the TS was not for use against the shield, but against the generator in order to temporarily disable it and capture it intact.

I get the impression that your super ion cannon is intended as an attritional weapon, designed to wear the shields down over the course of days or weeks. That’s a different mission than the TS, which is designed around bringing shields down ASAP. A stand-off weapon that can sit outside the range of v-150’s and w-165’s is going to have the same accuracy issues as those guns, only several orders of magnitude greater (thousand-plus-meter capital ships vs. an energy glitch the size of a TIE Fighter), and that’s before you factor in firing a turbolaser through the hole to try and snipe the shield generator.

Maximizing agility is fine for a stand-off bombard system, but if the mission and equipment limitations require getting up close and holding position relative to the target (the shield generator), then the ship in question needs to be able to take a hard hit.

As an aside, I also see a couple potential problems with your described fuel economics of a siege. First, planets are going to have vastly different power budgets, what with not needing sublight drives, acceleration compensators, artificial gravity and all the other things that make space flight in the SWU possible. Second, other forms of power generation may exist that aren’t subject to the same fuel restrictions. Before hypermatter was a thing, capital ships ran off solar ionization reactors (the reactor core was essentially a miniature star), and that’s just one possibility.

Torpedo Spheres were invented under the old Little Ship paradigm, where ISDs were the Empire’s Big Stick apart from a few larger command ships at the Sector and Regional HQ level, and TSs were intended to provide them with a supplementary shield breaking capability that they lacked. In the Big Ship paradigm, there would likely be other, larger platforms while the TSs would be relegated to lower priority sectors, possibly even deployed on its own with a frigate & corvette escort if an ISD wasn’t available.

But if nothing else, the TS needs to be updated just to be able to fulfill its described mission from the Organization chapter, that of general / punitive planetary bombardment, not just anti-shield operations. The description of Bombard Fleets includes things like “used when the Empire would rather completely destroy a world than see it fall into Rebel hands,” and “assigned to worlds which have rebelled successfully and have organized a large surface military which would take far too long to defeat.” Based on that, TSs either must have a more versatile weapons / troop / fighter load out or must be operating as a backup to some other platform that handles the actual bombard missions.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I think I’m seeing where you’re coming from in regards to the old hyper-minimalist paradigm that informed the WEG writers, but I also consider that the more internally consistent Saxton consensus is more relevant to our current understanding of the SW universe, and also fits in better with available cinematic evidence.

If we look at the strategic environment that the Empire found itself in when it was designing and procuring the torpedo sphere, it had unquestionable space superiority against conventional fleet threats, but still needed to be able to besiege any worlds that decided to make a claim for independence. After jamming all transmissions from the besieged world and setting up gravity well projectors, why would it matter if that siege was broken in a matter of minutes or a few days? Either way, the planet falls and they don’t get the chance to score a propaganda coup by knocking out an expensive siege platform.

The vastly increased risk to the torpedo sphere contrasted with the small advantage of coming in close is simply unacceptable. Any planet with a shield that can repel conventional line destroyers is also likely going to have surface-to-orbit armament against the same, and a Torpedo Sphere only a little larger than a destroyer is still going to be hideously vulnerable against such ordnance. If you wanted to design a platform for that up-close-and-personal role, it would have to be far larger to accommodate the reactor and shielding required to tank repeated blows from a W-165. Perhaps building such a ship into an existing asteroid for additional free heat dissipation might be an avenue worth exploring. (Design concept behind the Eye of Palpatine perhaps?)

An energy weapon equipped Star Monitor, while substantially larger than your shield fluctuation weak spot can make radical course corrections and dodge incoming rounds with ease. At 20 light seconds, a Star Monitor simply can’t be hit by any individual gun unless planetary batteries saturate the space around it in sheets of fire. The Star Monitor wouldn’t need to completely drain the planet’s shields anyways, but rather cause a local burnthrough for a follow up turbolaser volley fired a microsecond after the ion blast. Thus, it would not necessitate exploiting the weak spot that a Torpedo Sphere requires, and can target shield generators, planetary reactors, and command centers directly.
On the issue of planetary fuel economy, I’m aware that various EU sources over the years have mentioned other types of reactor, but no reactor can violate entropy even in Star Wars and produce energy for free. Some sort of exotic fuel is going to be required, as pure hydrogen fusion (as in stars) is never going to generate even a fraction of the amount of power to sustain the needs of a Star Destroyer or a project a shield that can resist a destroyer.
Regarding your last point, I actually think that the existing torpedo sphere is more than capable of punitive bombardment if it can successfully bring down shields. Anything with teraton yield HTL can easily glass cities, although I don’t know why you think having ground troops/fighters is required for that kind of scorched-planet mission set.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

But this is the Empire we’re talking about, the Empire that has no issue with designing ridiculous weapon systems (like AT-ATs) for the psychological factor, or building a trillion cheap starfighters because it knows it can afford to lose a few. What you’re describing is certainly a practical solution, but the Empire has demonstrated more than once that practicality is not its primary concern, and that it is more than willing to sacrifice assets to achieve victory.

Returning again to the Big Ship / Little Ship juxtaposition, consider the following. If the WEG Little Ship paradigm is used, then the Torpedo Sphere is the go-to weapon system for planetary assaults, with only the rare command ships packing more firepower. However, if the Saxton Big Ship paradigm is applied, then the Torpedo Sphere becomes a bit player, deployable by the dozens or hundreds like a siege tower in space. If the Empire wants to make a point and doesn’t care about the losses, they’re more than capable of throwing a dozen Torpedo Spheres at a planet – losing some of them in the process – in order to make a political statement that wouldn’t be made by a drawn-out conventional blockade and siege. So there’s a place in the Big Ship paradigm for both a siege tower designed to get in close and a trebuchet (your Star Monitor) that can wear away defenses from a distance.

Also, in the Big Ship paradigm, it’s almost certain that planetary defenses will be scaled up to match, with dozens or hundreds of v-150’s and w-165’s scattered across the surface, and their power budget and range will match or exceed anything that could be mounted on a mobile platform, short of the ion-equivalent of the axial superlaser on the Assertor or Eclipse. The creation of said weak spot is only possible through the combined, coordinated, time-on-target detonation of 500 heavy proton torpedoes that have been specifically tuned to be effective against shields, so any ion cannon would have to be able to match or exceed that (especially if they aren’t bothering to scan for exploitable weaknesses, and are just hammering away at it).

As far as putting troops on the Torpedo Sphere, it adds an extra facet of versatility to the planetary assault mission. Earlier I mentioned using Heavy Ion Cannon in combination with the Torpedo Spam attack in order to temporarily disable a shield generator rather than destroying it outright. Combine that with a coordinated assault by a stormtrooper legion to take and hold said shield generator long enough for reenforcements to be landed, and the planetary shield becomes a valuable asset for later use by the attacking force, instead of just a pile of rubble. Yes, escorting ISDs could perform the same function, but this presumes the ISDs won’t be otherwise occupied with other elements of the system defense forces, leaving the TS to deal with the problem on its own. All told, it gives the TS a wide range of tools to use for planetary attack, including fire support, punitive saturation bombards, precision strikes from TIE Bombers, and ground assaults against strategic assets with elite combined arms units (stormtroopers and walkers).

Good point on the Eye of Palpatine, BTW, yours being arguably the most practical idea to come out of that entire ridiculous book.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

That’s the problem; WEG was rather more schizophrenic than normal when it comes to exactly how many Torpedo Spheres there are. If you read the ship’s own write-up, sure, it says there were only six, but if you read the Sector Group Organization Chapter, the Torpedo Spheres were intended to be the core ships of the Imperial Navy’s Bombard Fleets, and were explicitly described as being capable of punitive attacks in addition to the anti-shield bombard, even though the official stats never mention this capability.

Also, organizationally, Bombard units were really limited in how they could be attached to a Sector Group; either assigning an entire Bombard Fleet (24 Torpedo Spheres, plus escorts and tenders) to the Sector, or reinforcing Assault Fleets with a Bombard Force (12 Torpedo Spheres plus escorts). So, either WEG is wrong and there are a lot more than just six Torpedo Spheres, or WEG is wrong and Bombard Fleets either exist purely theoretically or have some other, lesser platform as a core ship to perform their central mission (even though the write-up for Bombard Fleets never mentions such a ship). My take is more that six prototypes were built as proof-of-concept platforms, followed by a more capable and versatile production variant.

And by “core ship”, I mean that under the WEG paradigm (the Organization chapter, at least), it was normal practice to deploy Torpedo Spheres with nothing more than a few escorting frigates and corvettes, especially if Sector High Command decided the local threat level didn’t merit the attention of a Star Destroyer (which was only included if the system also had a strong system defense force in addition to planetary shields. With 25,000 ISDs and only a few larger command ships, a WEG “Star Destroyer” was a true capital ship, not the space-going equivalent of a modern escort destroyer, so there may not have been more ISDs available to send).

As far as close range, I should clarify that the weapons on the Torpedo Sphere were just as capable of long distance attack as the main batteries on a Star Destroyer, but accuracy greatly increased as the range closed. And since no capital ship-mounted weapons could outrange the v-150 or w-165 (apart from superlasers), the best chance of making an accurate attack meant getting in as close as possible in the hopes of getting through the shield quickly (To be clear, WEG never actually developed any rules for how to do the shield buster attack, so a lot of this is speculation based on the rules they did codify).

You’re correct that a Torpedo Sphere wouldn’t stand up well against a planet militarized to the degree the Big Ship paradigm would require, but that level of militarization is several orders of magnitude greater than that presented by the vast majority of planets in the WEG paradgim. In the WEG paradigm, a single Torpedo Sphere actually had a decent chance against a shielded planet; under the Big Ship paradigm, the only way a Torpedo Sphere works is if it’s either a mass-produced platform that can be thrown against a defended planet in groups – with losses accepted as the part of the cost of doing business – or as the planetary attack equivalent of a destroyer, used only against planets that lack the resources to effectively resist it, but possess sufficient shielding to resist an attack by a handful of ISDs.

So we’re ultimately talking two different versions of the Torpedo Sphere, depending on whether you’re operating in the Big Ship or Little Ship paradigm; either a stand-alone planetary assault platform that’s also one of the largest, toughest warships in the galaxy (in the WEG universe, only the Super Star Destroyers were bigger or tougher), or a small/medium-sized fish in a very large pond. My above description of an upgraded version fits either with the WEG paradigm or as a planetary assault platform augmenting ISD units out in the less heavily trafficked regions of the galaxy, where a massive, single-purpose ion bombard cannon would be overkill.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

True. Unfortunately, WEG couldn’t really go the Big Ship route because it rapidly reaches a point where the ships and battles are too big for a small group of game characters to make any real difference, or even participate. Even an ISD is usually just something a PC party runs away from. Efforts have been made over the years to allow PCs to command larger ships, but nothing has really come of it.

That’s a fair point as far as organizational ideal vs. reality. I do think that dedicated Bombard Fleets exist, but are primarily a reserve formation parcelled out to the various sector groups. Mention is made of other, less capable bombard platforms apart from the Torpedo Sphere, but no real details are given (my version of the Tector went this route). At the very least, I can see older Clone Wars-era platforms being relegated to the orbital fire support role while their newer, flashier brethren get the flashy space superiority missions.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

For an energy weapon, the idea that accuracy increases as the range closes is only meaningful against small, agile targets like ISDs or X-Wings. Pointing a beam of coherent energy at say, a specific point on Ganymede from a satellite in Earth Orbit was doable for NASA since the Carter Administration, and is child’s play in Star Wars. A V-150 may have a greater theoretical range than any starship weapon before the blast disperses, but its effective range against maneuverable starships is going to be far lower. That being said, I think we can all agree that there might be a little niche for a Torp Sphere as a rapid assault option supplemented by C̶o̶l̶d̶ Clone War surplus for besieging a lightly defended world in the Saxton ‘verse, but without that much use for anything else.

I’m curious why you have any remaining loyalty to the WEG small-ship paradigm at all. After all, it has been fairly obsolete for decades, and this very site’s primary reason for existing is fleshing out the roster of heavy Imperial warships. Maybe they wanted to design for PCs, but there are very few RPG settings where individual players can or should be able to affect major battles between great powers. Seems to me that the writers just had a failure of imagination. I also like to think that hardware that looks impractical to us should have a good reason for existing in-universe, but let’s not reopen the TIE and AT-AT worm can.

Reading and writing OOBs is always fun, and goes back way before pike blocks. We’ve got documents of Egyptian New Kingdom chariot formations of 250 each called Pedjets, although your guess is as good as mine if the Pharoah could actually count on the whole 250 showing up to the fight. Then again, in the era of relative peace before Endor, the Imperial Navy might actually be able to largely adhere to its prescribed organization. The instant our favorite asthmatic Space Samurai pushed his boss into his own bottomless pit, all of those formations shattered and the actual war was definitely fought with improvised ad-hoc kampfgruppes.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Two reasons, really. First, for all its faults, the WEG system is easily mastered and allows those who are so inclined to play in a fictional universe of which we are all huge fans. Secondly, Star Wars is, at its core, space opera, not hard sci-fi. You can only slap so many coats of hard sci-fi onto Star Wars before it ceases to resemble Star Wars. All the technological underpinnings are a backdrop to the human (or alien, as the case may be) element, of individuals or small groups having a huge effect, despite being a statistical insignificance on a galactic scale. The RPG allows people to experience the Lite version of that (as in, they may not be the heroes of the films, but they do get to be the heroes of their own little side story). so, while I can’t fault the logic of the Saxton Big Ship paradigm, there’s something of a sterile feel to it all, where the technology seems to overshadow the human element. WEG may not be realistic from a hard sci-fi standpoint, but IMO, it does a better job of capturing the feeling of Star Wars than do technical discussions of reactor output, gunnery tonnage and the like. YMMV, of course.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Handled properly, Big Ship-style stats don’t strike me as something to spoil a roleplayer’s fun so much as one more background factor to plan around. Barring GM sadism, you wouldn’t lob Scruffy Freighter Crew #473 right at a Bellator squadron any more than level 1 dungeon-crawlers would be expected to gank Tiamat/Bahamut/Iconic Dragon Deity Whose Name(s) I Forget.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

That’s true, but even to experienced players, standard ISDs are no joke, and Executors are just something you run away from. The big problem is that there isn’t really a reliable framework within the rules for big ship combat (at least, not in a way PCs can helm the ships), or even a way to build a ship captain character capable of taking on that role. So, large ship combat mostly exists as a backdrop to smaller scale action by the PCs, and the larger and more powerful a ship gets, the more superfluous its stats become, as there’s no way for a PC to fight it, and the GM is just going to use it for narrative purposes.

Personally, I think there’s room for epic-level rules within the game, where players can control massive ships in battle (there’s even a starting template – the Privateer Captain – who has the option of starting the game with a Corellian Corvette), but the framework, rules, stats and playtesting would have to be almost entirely homebrewed.

And in the end, WEG may have been wrong about the composition of the Imperial Navy, but if so, then where are all the ships? WEG appears to have based their view of space navy combat on what we see in the films, and that’s a bunch of ISDs and one big-@$$ command ship. I have no trouble believing that larger ships exist, and in substantial numbers, but I can hardly fault WEG for playing it safe and going with what they saw on screen.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

There is, but the two systems are different in so many ways that it’s next to impossible to cross them over.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I was just wondering about how Armada would fit

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Armada is also entirely Small Ship paradigm; apart from the Executor, the biggest ship they have is the ISD.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Did about the big ship program from Armada

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’d just note that (a) since none of the OT’s main characters are the sort to prioritize exhaustive order-of-battle holopresentations, their view (and hence most watchers’) of galactic naval presence is an understandably incomplete ‘which ship(s) are we desperately fleeing and/or locking horns with?’; and (b) the eclectic design & scale range of Rebel capitals would also seem to argue for somewhat comparable diversity on the Imperial end (especially since a fair chunk of the Rebellion’s assets are ex-Imp). WEG’s gameplay limits/context are understandable-just not what I’d consider the last word for Essential Guide(R)-style volumes.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

The counter-argument there is Imperial uniformity-by-choice versus the Alliance’s diversity by necessity; one has access to the vast majority of the galaxy’s resources while the other was forced to make do with whatever mixed bag it could beg, borrow or steal.

Fleet actions would be insanely complex under any gaming system, but it’s possible to treat warships as starfighters or freighters writ large (stat the ship as a single entity with one PC controlling it, or allow the PCs to play as division officers, controlling gunnery, shields, helm, etc). This can theoretically be extended to starfighter groups by treating them as a single unit with distributed architecture, and – if the stats and rules are done right – could potentially scale up to allow a single character (with a high enough skill level) to command a star dreadnought. WEG had a bare bones version of this early on, but never gave it a decent upgrade.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well, keep in mind the Empire was in a state of marked transition (see the Senate’s dissolution as of ANH), and may not have gotten enough post-Clone Wars time to retire older designs & standardize fleets from Core to Rim. Granted, there’s certainly more *hull shape* conformity than the Rebels ever bothered with.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

It also depends greatly on how quickly the Senate became Palpatine’s rubber stamp. It seemed well on the way to that by the end of RotS.

Daib
Daib
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Million Destroyer Gang Represent!

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  Daib

I’m not quite there, but a half or quarter-million-ship fleet I could see (and by ‘ship’ I mean ‘Victory/Venator tonnage & up’-Force knows I’m not touching probable corvette counts).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Ah, good question. The torpedo spam is actually Step 3 of a 5-step process. Step 1 is the TS figuring the approximate location of the shield generator by observing the energy patterns in the shield itself. Step 2 is to wait for a potential weak spot to occur directly between the TS and the shield generator. Step 3 is the torpedo spam to open the hole, and Step 4 is firing the Heavy Turbolasers (the TS’ only other listed weapon system) through the hole to try to destroy the shield generator. Step 5 is Repeat As Needed.

Per WEG, power spikes and energy fluctuations are happening all the time across the surface of the shield, and almost never amount to more than a 20% drop in power, but it’s enough for the TS to exploit.

I expect the tractor beam resonance method uses a similar procedure, but that it has a cumulative effect that builds up over time, during which the shield-breaker ship has to hold relatively motionless.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Most Mon Cal designs strike me as more ton-for-ton competitive with their murderwedge peers than the vast majority of CIS destroyer-ish-volume ships were vis-a-vis the Venator class, but I must agree WRT the inflated rep that MC shields have accumulated. Given the nozzle count/proportions on Home One & Profundity, I’m starting to wonder if the primary tradeoff was sublight thrust for earlier designs, with better-balanced heavies starting to enter the picture roughly post-Endor.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Another aside…

WEG described two more options for penetrating planetary shields on page 130 of the Dark Empire Sourcebook. One was a “coupled neutrino charge” fitted to the superlaser on the Eclipse; the other was using tuned tractor beams to resonate weak spots (detected in the same manner as the Torp Sphere).

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Supplementing the missile-massacre barrage with a superheavy energy weapon or two makes ample sense, as does mixing in stuff like ion-pulse warheads to ensure shield gaps stay open. That quake projector might be handy depending on its effective range, though tractor trickery seems safer used on defense-reduced (or totally shield-dependent) targets. I get the impression troop complements & small craft beyond security/utility needs are something better left to your economy-scale siege platform’s support screen.

PhantomFury
PhantomFury
1 year ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

I feel like I’m out of the loop, guess it’s time to read some fan fiction!

Proton
Proton
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I think it is both because you need to hit target the size of a rat with margin of error in milliseconds.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I concur. I love the game, but there is plenty of stuff WEG got wrong. Hell, the only time we actually see a proton torpedo up close, it very clearly makes a mid-course correction.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

The bow launchers seem set far enough forward to give Tyrant a bloody nose, but leave plenty of ship to retreat should a worst-case cookoff occur up there.

As for the TS…I guess that 721-II scene banked on each launcher being linked to a substantial deep-storage magazine for the HTL trickshot to light up, but that still seems a bit odd if all the thing was there to do is serve as a sensor station. WRT the whole ‘bank said TL shot off a planetary shield’ bit…honestly gotta second our host there. Closest onscreen thing I can compare would be that trash-compactor scene in ANH, and none of the energy-weapon/shield interactions elsewhere produce any ricochet I recall.

RD_GAMING_YT
RD_GAMING_YT
9 months ago
Reply to  Azure

Yes the internal explosion of ammunition is a big oof for any ship of and era or universe
This is a good design to control the explosion
And able to be safe from getting HOOD

AzureOwl
AzureOwl
1 year ago

Just out of curiosity, how many missiles does it carry?

Azure
Azure
1 year ago
Reply to  AzureOwl

It has around 680 launchers/missiles soooo a lot.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Missile? Yes!

Cdr. Rajh
Cdr. Rajh
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

696 launchers nice, but I’m more curious as to how many missiles each launcher has..

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago

All ~4.1KM of her is finally complete. I would like to thank EJ for the original model and permission for use on our take the Tyrant. I would like to hear his thoughts on how it ended up. FS, thank you for your patience and agreeing to this on.

EvilleJedi
EvilleJedi
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I really like the look of it, I would have closed the gap between the ring and the hull with a skeletal super structure with sparse plating, but all of the other details definitely make it look like it was descended from Clone wars or pre clone wars era ships and would fit right in with the Procurator and Secutor. It really does need an orbital bombardment shot though. what did the final diameter and length of the missiles end up being?

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  EvilleJedi

I was thinking cluster munitions of various types.
Thank you for the feedback

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
1 year ago
Reply to  EvilleJedi

I’m guessing you refer to the dimensions to the ring

Ryadra777
1 year ago

Nice to see the Tyrant finished, also no fighter capacity only shuttle bay, I guess that one way to stop it from being the complete upgrade to the Vsd, I guess the troop capacity is a division or two for ship board security.

Shaun
Shaun
1 year ago

She’s gorgeous. Love the proportions.