17 Aug 2022 Mandator WIP #4 by Fractalsponge | posted in: Capital ship, Galactic Empire, Old Republic, Star Wars, WIP | 55
Wow! Bravo, once again, for this wonderful work! The shadows and lights are magnificent! The ship is HUGE: can you give me the exact dimensions, please?
I don’t know much, but if this is a Mandator III, then its length is supposed to be 12,000 metres
I saw a model of the Nebulon-B frigate in imperial design (I liked the model from EC Henry the most). I have also already seen your model of a Dreadnought class Heavy Cruiser. However, absurd (or not so) ideas come to my mind – has anyone tried to make an Assault Frigate Mark II in imperial design…
Please forgive my obsession.
I use Yandex Translate, because my english is very bad.
Hope to see Mandator III’s completion soon, Fractal, old buddy. It really looks like its close to completion.
“Princess of the Galaxy”?
Seriously, and you have the gall to criticize Fractal’s hardwork?? Get bent.
Oh it’s GLORIOUS! The sheer amount of detail Fractal’s put into this thing staggers the mind.
The detail is great as always, more incredible than usual even. Overall this design is extremely unremarkable and could easily be mistaken for the Assertor or any number of similar massive ships. That creativity being substituted for fake numbers such as power generation and turret count is disappointing. This model should have drawn inspiration from the odd but distinctive “Pride of the Core” design, or have been something brand new. Instead this is turning into a diet Assertor.
Out of Curiosity, what other similar massive ships are you referring to? Assertor Aside.
As for the Pride of the Core, while I enjoy the look myself, it is quite the outdated take on an old Mandator these days
The Compellor was the other one I had in mind, and the Bellator to a lesser degree. The Legator stands out due to its very deep hull and because it doesn’t have the blocky superstructure of those other ones.
The compellor doesn’t even come close to the sizes of the assertor or Mandator. Even worse is the smaller amount of fire power the compellor has even compared even to the bellator.
Oh lord, you again. Was getting kicked off the server not enough? Do you really want to try make a martyr of yourself twice by being a dickhead on the website? Your dedication to making a fool of yourself would be genuinely impressive were it not so unpleasant for others to experience.
The distinguishing features are the aft hump and sublight engine bank
Those components are still under construction; the frontal shot doesn’t show them well
Once they’re integrated into the overall design, I’m sure it’ll cut a much different profile from the Assertor
If Fractal’s Assertor is so disappointing, please feel free to give us your superior rendition.
I’ll just be waiting over here…
Meant to say Mandator!
Woops, now I look like the silly one.
Please stop, I can only get so erect… Just Kidding. I love the way its turning out, it’s awesome to see Fractal design the ship’s shape then flesh it out.
I think maybe raising the bridge tower a bit instead of having it sorta smushed against the hull might look a bit better, kinda like how on the ISD and Executor they sit atop a tower?
I was thinking a more intermediate design between the Secutor/Venator-type bridge style and the typical ISD-type would be interesting. But that’s mostly a purely form/design thought driven by the desire to emphasize the linearity of the central spine and not one related to function/practicality (either in universe or from an existing modeling/aasset perspective).
That’d work if fractal ever did a model of the republic Maelstrom Class Battlecruiser which had the secutor/venator style dual bridges. Speaking of which it would be interesting to see his take on that ship because no models or even pictures of it exist anywhere and it’s design is rather unique from the written descriptions I’ve heard.
I know on discord you talked about adding a legator size sensor bulb. Is that still the plan? Either with or without this will look fantastic. I’d love to see a shot with this and an assertor together when this is done. You really are 2nd to none.
I really like it.
A Central Ridge with Batteries Front and Back. Also the Ridge is constant until it goes into the Main Body of the Ship and does not abruptly ends.
I hope that this Ship has Batteries on Top and Bottom of the Ship (natural Weakpoint of most StarWars Star Destroyers.)
It keeps getting better and better! I for one think ships like this which spawned from the Tarkin Doctrine are just plain silly from a tactical point of view. But I’ll be the son of a monkey lizard if they aren’t effective in their task. I for one would have sh#t may pants if I came up against one of these.
However, if we’re going by Legends continuity, the Tarkin Doctrine was probably there as part of deterring the Yuzzhan Vong invasion. After all, after the Empire was gone, they showed up pretty quickly, so yeah, pretty effective I guess. But in keeping order within the Empire’s boarders… not so much. This all seems pretty hypocritical, doesn’t it? The joys of having an irrational obsession with Star Wars. My the Whills forever bless your work Mr. Hsiao.
Tarkin doctrine had nothing to do with the Vong – it was a political doctrine regarding the state’s use of force to guarantee the loyalty of its constituents. To drop the political science lingo for a second, the Tarkin doctrine really had nothing to do with building big, intimidating ships, and it didn’t directly dictate the size of the military. Its concern was the use of the military – rule through fear of force, by way of massive repression and retaliation to the threat of secession or rebellion by a planet under the Imperial state’s control. The basic point was fairly salient – it’s impossible to garrison and directly control the entire galaxy because of how vast it is, so the Empire must instead use the threat of force to rule its holdings indirectly, without needing to shoulder the cost of actually engaging in military action. Think fleet in being, but with the threat being an invasion force rather than a fleet sortie. The stupid part about it was that the Empire just used naked force instead of actually resolving the issues its vices and excesses imposed on the rest of the galaxy – Tarkin Doctrine, in isolation, was politically untenable, and made armed resistance practically inevitable.
I get where you’re headed with this. The Empire did need a simply and effective way to govern the galaxy without the possibility of uprisings. What better way to do that then to just strengthen the military and the Starfleet and say “Hey I’ve got a big metal wedge capable of melting the surface of your planet. Now do everything I say or I’ll use it.” Plus there were all the intelligence organizations to keep watch on the innerworkings of the Empire, like the ISB, which let’s face it is basically meant to be the Gestapo or KGB with blasters. But I think you left out an important point. Part of the reason, if not the direct reason, for building the Death Star and dreadnaughts like the Mandator here was not only show of force and ruling through fear and all that stuff, it was to deter the threat of invasion form outside forces. And I’m not just taking about the Vong here, what about all the other factions in the Unknown Regions. Sure the Chiss were basically chilling out while the Empire took over, but there were a whole bunch of Sith off shoots and cultists out there, and I’m pretty sure Palpatine didn’t want any of them to try and overthrow his Empire, not that they could even of they wanted to, lol. But, yeah, I do see your point. Maybe Tarkin could have made emperor if he wasn’t so stupid, or had such a traumatic childhood. I mean, come on, the guy refused to evacuate the Death Star all because of “Triumph” as he called it. The man my have been a political genius by some standards, but gees, stupid as hell. And before you write your arguments against me, the man had control over the most powerful weapon of all time, and didn’t think once about just heading over to Coruscant and accidently pushing the wrong button. “Hey sorry Darth, I thought it was the expresso machine.” I would have just shot the escape pod at the start of the movie and saved myself the trouble to be honest.
That’s going to be part of the rationale behind any large superstate, be it the Republic, the Empire, the New Republic, or anything else. It’s worth noting that the mobilisation potential of the galaxy is immense – as long as you have semi-competent rule, those outside threats can be, and would have been dealt with in fairly short order. You have a galaxy of 70 million major planets and many more minor ones whose resources can be mobilised to go put the hurt on the Vong, Chiss, what have you – the important part is creating a political settlement that’s acceptable enough to the galaxy that they won’t resist you mobilising those resources, and the Empire was not capable of doing that. And that is what the Tarkin doctrine failed at – rather than mediating the underlying conflicts that set the Rim against the Core in the first place, it just put a giant lid on them in the hopes that, if you shoot enough people and wave the gun around enough, they wouldn’t boil over.
And, to address the Tarkin point – Tarkin wasn’t really in a position to launch a coup. To take control of the Empire, he’d have needed to subsume most of the arms of state to his control before he actually killed the Emperor – an assassination doesn’t put the assassin in power, and what it usually results in is the assassin getting violently murdered by anyone who genuinely backed the former ruler. Tarkin’s certainly ambitious enough for the idea of being the one on the throne to be appealing, but he’s also canny enough to know that getting from killing the Emperor to sitting where he sat is not a simple manner. Anyone high up in the Empire could have killed the Emperor over the years – just shoot down his shuttle as he comes in for a Royal Inspection. The Emperor stays in charge because any would-be assassin has to contend with the fact that A: if they failed, they’d be brutally executed, probably after extensive torture, and that B: if they succeeded, all they’d manage to do is collapse the Empire into a giant civil war which they probably wouldn’t stand any decent chance of winning. You have to have the means to actually take the reins of power after you off the previous ruler for a coup to be successful, and Palpatine is much too canny to allow anyone into a position where they could do that. Hell, blowing up Coruscant would by definition remove all the organs of state that you’d need to take control, because they’re all situated in the capital. Plus, Tarkin would be all too aware of the fact that Vader’s presence on the Death Star was specifically a guarantee against him attempting something like that – any attempt at treason would’ve probably ended with Vader storming into Tarkin’s office and spraying him all over the walls. Tarkin is not a stupid man – just a constrained one.
This isn’t to say that he’s a political genius either, because he’s not – the Tarkin Doctrine was an immense failure of policy that made the problem it set out to solve way worse, without any real recourse towards fixing the underlying problems plaguing the Empire. You can theoretically stabilise the Empire situation through reforms of power and a proper settlement for the grievances of the Rim, but Palpatine, and Tarkin, his right hand man, were not the men to do that, and so the whole thing went tits-up.
My arrogance blinds me, so to speak. Indeed, everything you have said is true, and most brilliantly stated I must say. I agree most definitely on your opinions and I can see that my own knowledge of such matters as Imperial politics is sorely lacking compared to my love of the characters and the worlds of the galaxy. I should also have probably clarified my intent to be humorous in my above statements on Tarkin’s supposed coup. Indeed, I would agree that Tarkin was not a stupid man, and I in fact have pity on him as a character. Much of what he did in his adult life, his policies and political reforms, all stemmed from the pains he suffered during childhood, much of them at the hands of an abusive father. If my humorousness was not evident in my previous comment then I apologies for the confusion. I shall be more clear in my statements from hence forth. Let me state again that I agree with your opinion wholly. Spraying him all over the walls, eh? Delightfully gruesome, would never make it past the cutting room, lol. A thought has come to mind. It is interesting to think that without good old Wilhuff, Sheev, and their strange obsession with maintaining order and galactic security, and most assuredly with out The First Saga of the Whills so brilliantly crafted by Mr. Lucas, we would not be here having this discussion in the comments of one of the most talented Star Wars artists on the web. Ever thought about what would have happened if we got one of the different versions of Tarkin? I believe he was a rebel general at one point!
On a completely deferent note, what do you believe to be the estimated power output of a ship of this size, reactor wise that is. I’m no good with numbers so… in other words I’m a lazy bum who hates doing math. I’m also interested to see if it has two reactors like the Bellator. Since Fractal has not given any shots of the bottom (that I know of anyway) we cannot see if it has a primary and a secondary reactor bulb, or if it maybe has more. I personally don’t see the point in having more then two reactors. Sure if the ship is large enough that it is required then okay, but then you might need to have a discussion with the guys over at KDY. Not to mention the fact that really all you should need is a primary and a secondary on a starship, unless of course someone at Kuat went a little overkill on the whole size thing. All though can you really go overkill on size. Lets face it, Star Wars has never really shied away from big when it comes to spaceship. Just an opinion though.
On another note, I think that one factor leading to the Empire’s defeat in the Galactic Civil War was their lack of strong versatile starfighters. Sure they had plenty of experimental fighters, but that in itself is a problem. They had too many experimental fighters and not three or four verities of fighter-bombers or interceptors which may have been a better choice. Just look at the Alliance, which was essentially made up of small, fast, and durable fighter-bombers. The Empire could have also put more funds into the Interdictor and TIE Defender programs rather then the Death Stars and super destroyers, or tried to include a gravity well generator on more of their capital ships to stop rebel scum from escaping to hyperspace. I do realize that that my be a tall order do to the cost of such weapons and the amount of power needed to maintain a steady gravity field, but all this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
Something completely deferent, do you think if the reborn emperor had been successful in reestablishing his rule over the galaxy he would have opted completely for more practical starships, being smaller and more easily maintainable, or bigger more intimidating as in the Civil War era. I believe most fan artist who have explored this what if scenario have gone with the latter route. Palpatine certainly had plenty of time to reconsider his strategy after dying so many times. Maintaining a fleet of smaller, more versatile vessels would of course be more cost effective and overall smarter in the long run which is probably what he would have wanted. He could certainly have built one final big vessel, something within the range of an executor maybe, and used that as his command ship. Even if he ditched the big metal pizza slice, he could still make the smaller ships plenty intimidating. Take something like the Victory (one not two) add a few more guns a slightly larger reactor to accommodate the the extra power needs and there you go, a slightly smaller slightly more powerful metal pizza slice. Of course, all just my opinion.
Once again, I agree with your opinion, and so I am defeated by my foolish arrogance, how so very poetic. May the Whills damn me to the void of the nether world if I should ever be so consumed by the Dark Side again.
Come join the Fractalsponge discord server – I’ll be able to answer those questions better over there. The link’s on this website somewhere.
I’m no fan of the Tarkin Doctrine and I admonish the Empire for not using smaller, flexible and more effective ships in their navy….
But by the Force, when I see the Assertor and this beauty, I feel something that I otherwise only ever feel towards busty redheads.
The power of boners? But seriously didnt fractal called it at some point “Imperial Battleship Porn”. Just paraphrasing, and i am all here for it.
Indeed. Fractal should def mark all his work as NSFW…
In general I agree but you always need some heavy forces when the smaller ones can’t do the job, so SD, assertor and mandator have their roles just not to the scale tarkin used them.
Sure, in an all out war, Star Dreadnoughts are extremely useful but they really aren’t effective against a small and flexible starfighter group that the rebels prefer.
It’s why you have a bunch of Lancer-Frigates and anti-starfighter escorts assigned to protect a star dreadnought. Never bring one to a starfighter fight.
Per Fractal, the Mandator is going to have a pretty substantial fighter complement backing up its own point defenses, so I don’t see where you’re getting this.
Every time I play Empire at War mods I’m well aware of how the Rebellion and New Republic mostly use independent strike-fleets of starfighters. They don’t need carriers. As the Empire, I always defend my star-dreadnoughts using extra anti-starfighter ships just in case. A star dreadnought may carry its own starfighter screens, but the Empire never got to the point where it could comfortanly produce and accommodate nothing but TIE Defenders and TIE Avengers and scrap the shield-less standard TIE. We all know a swarm of standard TIEs is no match for a squadron of X-wings. Big super-duper Imperial ships and superweapons in Star Wars almost always get their asses kicked by the Rebels’ starfighters. I back up all my big ships with enough anti-starfighter defense that that strategy is nullified. It pays to be prepared.
Fundamentally, starfighters alone are not capable of conducting a peer war. As in all things, you need combined arms.
Starfighters are only a small component of the overall combined-arms picture – and given that large warships are clearly cost effective in star wars – used as they are by all parties – you’ll probably be throwing many tens of thousands, perhaps millions of starfighters at something this expensive for it to begin to have an effect.
Of course, if you brought a few dozen Home Ones and provided your starfighters with fire support, ECM, and supporting torpedo strikes, you could probably have a much better effect on the target
SW capital ships are overwhelmingly gun-dominant, with fighter carrying as a secondary function for basically everything other than fleet carriers, of which there are very few. This suggests that, in most cases, building a ship with a gun will give you more striking power where it is needed than building a ship with a hangar. Fighters still have utility – most ships have significant carrying capacity, after all – but they do not dominate control of space. Large capital ships armed with energy weapons do. If fighters were the dominant means of delivering lethality, they would be the dominant presence on the battlefield – everyone would spend their money building giant fleet carriers, instead of giant direct combatants like Executor, Mandator III, and Viscount. SW ships put most of their volume into large reactors to support large main armaments – even relatively carrier-focused designs, like the Venator, still dedicate very significant volume to being direct combatants. Fighters are clearly not dominant – neither are missiles. They are an ancillary capability to complement the big guns, rather than anything being the opposite way around.
Also, just as a note: EaW is a game. Its balance is designed around making different capabilities on the playing field roughly equal, so there’s a fun game balance for the player to experiment with. Part of this is requiring utility for every scale of ship in a single engagement, because corvettes just being smaller and proportionally weaker than capital ships would mean players don’t use them much. The way the game devs did this is by stripping the ability of large capital ships to defend themselves from fighters. This is not something that is reflected in SW proper – there’s absolutely nothing stopping a designer from strapping a suite of anti-fighter weapons onto a capital ship that’s several times larger and more effective than what a picket ship can mount. There’s no need to use nested picket lines of light warships when you can mount the same stuff at very little cost on the ships they’re ostensibly supposed to be protecting. Lancers are cheap convoy escorts, essentially just Nebulon Bs with hangars. CR90s pop like grapes in capital ship fights. You don’t want or need them in a line battle. Indeed, basically every time an Imperator or some other capital ship is on screen, it’s chasing after small fighters and harassing them with light fire – though, usually the intent seems to be achieving a capture rather than a kill. Be a little more discerning about how you look at the dynamics of SW combat than taking a game’s balance verbatim.
Hmm what about ships were missiles or projectile weapons are it’s dominant form of weaponry or ships were missiles or projectile weapons are as much of a focus as turbolasers are?
Ships like the providence class with it’s 100 proton torpedo tubes and it’s flak cannons or the tyrant with it’s almost 700 missile launchers and victory with it’s 80 missile launchers.
What are your thoughts on those?
Those are still fundamentally gun-armed ships, equipped to have other capabilities. The Victory, by volume, is mostly reactor. Same goes for the Providence. It’s worth noting that you are naturally going to get niche cases where the general rule is not observed, as with the Tyrant, or Ton Falk, but those cases are ones that do not interfere with the greater trend that anything used to control space, the primary job of a navy, is gun-dominant. The Tyrant is a bombardment platform, mostly. The Ton Falk is an escort carrier.
This isn’t to say that missiles and fighters don’t have utility, because if they didn’t, you wouldn’t see them at all. However, they don’t dominate the combat paradigm – my point is essentially that the primary striking arm of the navy is the turbolaser, presumably because it’s just better at the job.
I tend to agree except for bombers and missile boats for example Ywing/Scimitar and skipray/i dont know of any rebel equivalent. Squadrons could pose an significant thread for vital subsystems. Even though i disagree with what i shown an squadron of Ywing disables an Imperator class SD above scariff. I disagree with that they are able to disable the entire ship, with a few proton torpedos although the shields have been raised.
If they can get in close, yes – they’re still apparently not good enough at delivering strikes to be more worthwhile in that role than turbolaser fire, so limitations must exist on their ability to do.
To bring in a bit of a historical analogy here, fighters are essentially like torpedo boats, a good example of which would be the E-Boats of the Italian and German navies during WWII. They’re faster and more agile than capital ships, but operate at much shorter ranges, and are generally much smaller and thus more vulnerable. If they can get in close, like in a port strike such as Scarif, or a fight close in to a planet like Coruscant or Endor, they’re pretty lethal. The problem with them is that they’re exceedingly vulnerable to light fire at longer, can be intercepted while the big targets are still outside of the range of their own munitions, and struggle to operate in an expeditionary capacity when not supported by a mothership. One also imagines that, within SW, other barriers to do with cost-effect problems and such probably limit their capacity to be a step change in capability.
On a general note: as I’ve said already, fighters have plenty of utility. You can deliver lethal strikes with them, perform some roles that capital ships do not, such as distributed sensor pickets, and they seem to synergise fairly well with big, gun-armed warships in combat. My point has never been that they aren’t useful – it’s that SW warships overwhelmingly favour carrying guns over carrying hangars, by volume and surface area, demonstrating that the dominant paradigm for space control is still a capital ship armed with turbolasers.
Side comment, it’s not very well-demonstrated within the movie, but the Imperators at Scarif are scrambling from low readiness, and aren’t actually functioning at full capacity through the battle. It takes them several minutes to get enough power going to even turn to bear, only one of them actually gets the opportunity to even begin firing, and their manoeuvre is lethargic – most likely, the complete surprised achieved by the Rebel fleet’s arrival caught the two with their pants down, hence the mediocre performance. The Devastator’s arrival is perhaps a better demonstration of an Imperator operating at full capacity.
I understand bombers are lethal and more use full in short range. And of course in case of an bigger and heavily shielded and/or armored target concentrated bombing runs from one or more squadrons. The only example im aware of is the attack on the malevolence in SW CW with Ywings. And on a personal side note i would like to forget this horrible and pathetic attempt of a bombing “run” from TLJ.
And i rewatched the attack on scarif and it seems you are correct about the battle readiness of those two SDs. And a little correction i wrote proton torpedos but meant ion torps.
Fair enough I can agree with that.
I think would be interesting to get more ships that utilize mass driver or projectile weaponry. You know weapons that are different from Turbolasers and see how well they stack up to turbolaser dominated ships.
Well, none of the major militaries use mass drivers in a meaningful way, so presumably they stack up rather poorly – anything not in regular use presumably is getting left by the wayside for good reason. You probably get different flavours of beam weaponry – we know the Chiss, who are roughly at or just lagging behind Galstandard tech, use masers (microwave lasers, essentially) rather than turbolasers, for instance. Otherwise, projectile weapons will probably be a poverty weapon for polities that can’t afford to buy the normal stuff, or a way of adding Delta-V to a missile or torpedo by boosting it before the engine kicks in.
From what I understand mass drivers were highly effective as planetary defense weaponry.
If you guy by legends then the mandalorians and zann consortium made effective use of them. So did the CIS
I know I’m the old republic days they were quite common.
I think the main reason is turbolasers took over is they are better for depleting shields and are also effective against armor you don’t have to worry about ammo.
I’d say large caliber mass drivers would be better for armor penetration though.
I know in the old republic they had a form of mass Driver that fired plasma bolts encased in magnetic field then propelled that’d basically stick to shields And armor and continuously burn them after hitting em.
I mean, Vader’s TIE squadron tore the rebel forces apart above Death Star…
Truly the Devil’s work…
Mandators are highly effective Star Dreadnaughts
Destroyers may be good for small engagements across the breadth of the Outer Rim, but for the big engagements, you want battlewagons.
20$ on the comment you’re responding to was made under SD=BB narrative.
Care to explain what that narrative is?
Basically, that Star Dreadnaughts (SDs) are akin to real-world Battleships (BBs), and thus lack any meaningful fighter capacity, and are consequently vulnerable to massed fighter attack.
Well. I meant more of how WEG places ISD in a position similar to aircraft carrier in a modern CBG. Basically implying it to be a true capital ship.
An Imperator’s probably closest to a WWII light cruiser in terms of role – screening and flank operations in a battle line, and the centre of formations for independent operations. It can play at being a battleship when nothing heavier is around, since its larger, better-armed, and more survivable than smaller warships, but it’s ultimately substituting size and striking power for numbers and thus reach in a serious fashion. The WEG placement’s non-terrible – just limited in terms of scope to look at any larger warships, which kinda makes sense for a low-scale roleplaying game
Looks amazing so far can’t wait to see the final product.