Weapon Count Update:
PD Turrets: 835
Quad Medium Turbolaser Turrets: 108
Quad Heavy Turbolaser Turrets: 42
Octuple Heavy Turbolaser Barbettes: 20
Twin UltraHeavy Turbolaser Turrets: 24
Quad Heavy Ion Cannon Ball Turrets: 14
Missile Launch Tubes: 108
I haven’t counted tractor beam projectors so far. If you’d like me to do so, let me know.
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PhantomFury
Though I admire the lack of blue tint in things like Star Wars Revisited projects, something about seeing that hue casted upon a ship to give out that cold feeling hits a chord!
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Kerobani
Fractal, if you have the time, would you be willing to upload an image of the Bellator’s weapon palate? I know for a fact that you put a great deal of effort into every detail and it’s a shame that the smallest weapons tend to get lost in the larger images.
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Steven A Futrell
you should upload to sketchfab so we can view its full glory!
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Valoren
Assuming both sides of the ship have an equivalent amount of weapon, I counted 325 PD turrets on the trenches alone.
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TheIcthala
Including the bow turrets, it’s 421 by my count. 26 8 turret batteries on either side plus the 5 on the bow. I may have miscounted, but I’ve been as careful as I can be with my count.
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Valoren
You’re right, I actually missed a section of the trench.
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Joshua Wheeler
Just as beautiful as the original! I also love the lighting in the 65th and 66th pictures looks precisely like the lighting you’d see in the original trilogy. Simply amazing.
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Waittt OKon
I wonder how far into the outer rim these flagship Bellators could travel. The pictures you mention look like they are en route to Tatooine haha.
That is definitely the right idea. That level of detail, makes you wonder if any game devs are approaching Fractal to do some early mockups of their own space fantasies.
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PzAce247
Are those forward torpedo tubes in shot #2?
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gorkmalork
Probably. You can generally distinguish those from, say, tractor-beam dishes or other round widgets ’cause our host tends to plant short rows of ’em on heavier ship designs.
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Shaun
Oh man! Soooooooo excited to try out the slide, too!
[Same shot, just left of the tubes.]
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gorkmalork
Just remember: dianogas *always* get right of way (and any shiny stuff you didn’t leave in the locker).
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TheEpicDude
“The ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the power of Fractalsponge.”
love it man its amazing!!
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Proton
Hi Fractal, do you have anything planned for this ship unknown ship from DE?
Looks like it has dome on top of the hull, bridge in the middle of the ship and some bulky square superstructure behinde?
Really weird for KDY design.
Perhaps it could be a carrier, taking design cues from real life examples, i.e: a control tower on one side?
Whilst I’m replying to this, what about the Chiss star destroyer. It’s described as being smaller than the ISD, with all weak points (let’s say large points) removed.
Thanks
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gorkmalork
Wet-navy carriers use offset control faciliities ’cause their air wings need every inch of possible launch/recovery/storage/maintenance space; said resources are much less of a problem for your average kilometer-and-change-scale SW ship with hover-capable fighters & tractor beams. This ship’s asymmetric tower *might* be a ‘simple’ case of hastily-field-patched battle damage.
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Rodian_FreightJockey
The “bulky square” is increased hangar bay and probably spacing for elevators for launching absolute clouds of TIE fighters (see the Rogue One scene where Scarif shield depot is doing the same)
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gorkmalork
Dunno if I’d stick dorsal hangar ports & a grav-well projector that close together; this one might be an otherwise-conventional Impstar-ballpark destroyer with moderate interdiction capability. Since our host already has a quad-projector Dominator-class render, doubtful overhauling this particular Dark Horse doodle would move up the queue without a commission.
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Steve
I don’t think its a grav-well projector, IIRC its a secondary reactor section, nowhere near as powerful as the main reactor but still damn powerful, giving this ship all the energy and thrust she needs.
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gorkmalork
I was under the impression most dagger-style ship designs keep ‘tender’ bits like launch bays & protruding reactor bits on the ventral surface so their generally-better-armed dorsal facings can be oriented toward peer opponents with less risk of a vital component hit.
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Waittt OKon
Thanks for the clarification gorkmalork, I agree the Interdiction capable cruisers we have seen in Star Wars lore use up a ton of interior space to run the disruption dome projectors. My only other guess is a refueling / refit service platform is berthed against it.
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gorkmalork
So a destroyer variant with the ability to top off frigates & corvettes? Could be handy for long-range patrols.
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Daib
Under what circumstances would refueling via dedicated tanker be more efficient than jumping back to a regional fleet base? When warships are never more than a few hours from a base rather than days/weeks, the operational paradigm seems much more like WW2 aircraft than wet-navy operations.
A few things I can think of: – Surprise – fixed bases might be under surveillance. One assumes Grievous’ Deep Core run on Coruscant was made via tanker support – Efficiency – if you can refuel and be back in line in an hour vs several hours, that’s worth it. If rare enough, some specialized ships like EW/Comscan ships you might NEVER want to be offline or far from combat if you can avoid it because you never have enough – Speed – you need to get to where you want to go fast, and there’s no time to detour… Read more »
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Daib
How long of a range do you think capital ships have? Civilian pleasure craft can seemingly cross the galaxy without need of refueling, while you would think that dedicated warships would devote much more of their mass and volume to fuel than random yachts.
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Waittt OKon
One of the last entries in ship hyperspace ranges fully fueled was in Clone Wars Cross Sections, now redacted from canon. It does give some insight into the fueling needs when you realize the smaller cruisers (ones capable of atmospheric operation) in the Clone Wars also had better hyperspace range than their heavy-hitter command ships. My guess, the Empire needs service-capable Destroyers not to increase fleet range, but to reach more of the fleet.
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CRMcNeill
IMO, that was one of the more short-sighted changes made to the SWU in the Disney era. Star Wars drew so much space combat inspiration from the WW1/2 era that transit times measured in days or weeks seemed perfectly normal, and also did much to explain the Alliance’s successes in the Outer Rim regions, as the Empire was spread thin and reinforcements were often quite far away. Transit times of hours or days within a sector – especially once off of major hyperspace lanes – made sense, but applying those same numbers to trans-galactic travel was an unforced error. Just… Read more »
You can’t completely blame the distances on Disney. It’s always been somewhat fast to travel across the SW galaxy, dating back to the OT and the not-months journey from Tatooine to Alderaan. There was plenty of space so to speak for regional and specific variation in travel times, but one could get across the galaxy pretty fast pre-canon transition.
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Proton
1
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CRMcNeill
That’s true, but it went from being the exception (as in, between planets that were located on or conveniently close to a major hyperspace route) to the rule. Now it seems like every possible hyperspace jump from even middle-of-nowhere locations (like Crait in TLJ) are a matter of hours away from planets located on the other side of the galaxy. And even jumps that could be plausibly explained away as being “somewhat nearby” get ruined by the story group deliberately placing the planets on the other side of the galaxy, even when there is no need to. It’s an unforced… Read more »
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Daib
I’m curious. Who’s on your list?
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CRMcNeill
In all fairness, it would probably end up being more than five. Who wants to volunteer? I mean, literally volunteer: it’s an unpaid position, but the entirety of content in the SWU would have to get your stamp of approval. I know I’d be on that list…
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PhoenixKnight
but that could also mean we could see ‘The Book’
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PhantomFury
Sounds fun enough. I use to run an SW roleplay room and added a travel time mechanic to the chagrin of the people inside, but it’s really their own fault for jumping across the galaxy in a Class 2 rustbucket and it taking 2 irl weeks.
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Proton
Check their perception by breaking Hyperdrive and making backup hyperdrive 12 class.
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PhantomFury
Would be fun to GM, but awful for the player haha
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Proton
It will tell them that spaceship is more then metal box with engines.
That is inportant in my opinion.
you can say something like ” You start piloting the ship and notice something strange in controls”
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PhantomFury
Under typical D&D sense, it would definately be cool for sure and give more value in ships than just some segue material!
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CRMcNeill
Au contraire. A damaged hyperdrive and having to limp your way to the nearest inhabited system on your backup is a classic adventure hook with a long and glorious tradition.
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PhantomFury
See, that is what I would do if it’s me. Unfortunately, the majority of the people present at the time dislikes the mechanic (because, again, it takes irl time (I will say this though, the place ran at x3 speed, and some trips still take weeks)) and are mostly singleminded to only reach their destination, so if I even mention the aspect of hyperdrive damage upon them, it’d make for some volatile atmosphere.
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CRMcNeill
Ah, the sweet, sweet tears of a band of space-going murder hobos when things don’t go exactly according to plan.
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PhantomFury
While the nectar is indeed sweet, it is laced with a poison named grudge, haha
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CRMcNeill
True. Easy to forget that just because the Falcon can make a super-fast jump doesn’t make it normal for everyone else.
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PhoenixKnight
I bet I know
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PhoenixKnight
On who’s who on the ‘List’
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countvertex
I remember the idea has been out there, that in hyperspace travel time is not defined by a limit on the max velocity of a ship – meaning ships could in principle go arbitrarily fast – , but rather by the availability of data on hyperspace routes, processing power of the nav computer, and maybe the willingness of the pilot to take risks. So with very accurate, up-to-date data, a top shelf navicomputer and some recklessness you can jump vast distances in a short time.
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CRMcNeill
I have theorized elsewhere that the link for availability of data on hyperspace routes is the BoSS (Bureau of Ships & Services). The short version is that hyperspace course data is downloaded from starships to the local BoSS office as part of their regular maintenance and servicing. BoSS is semi-autonomous even during the Imperial era, and has offices all across the galaxy. This is done voluntarily in exchange for getting updated data charts either for free or at a large discount. BoSS then crunches the data it receives on a given route from all the ships that have traveled that… Read more »
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Chris Bradshaw
Not sure how much of that is Disney and how much was already established. The Death Star was able to make it from Alderaan to Yavin only a few hours behind the Falcon, and if the Empire had the constant navigational data for that sort of jump, Yavin would have been a pretty awful place to put your Rebel strategic high command. Obi Wan was similarly able to get from Coruscant to Kamino in a few hours, a planet so isolated that it was wiped from the archives and no one noticed. He was then able to make it to… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
That’s largely a matter of perception. Was it only a few hours from Alderaan to Yavin, or was it several days? I question whether it would’ve taken just a few hours of study of the plans to identify the exhaust port weakness. It’s also an established part of the fandom that Jedi are able to extend the operational range of starfighters by going into a hibernation trance, so again, how quickly Obi-wan traveled to Kamino and then Geonosis is largely a matter of perception. Yes, it /could/ be a matter of hours, but it could also take several days, with… Read more »
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Chris Bradshaw
If the Death Star took several days to arrive at Yavin after the Falcon, there would be plenty of time to recall scattered fleet assets and conduct an orderly evacuation instead of a desperate do-or-die snubfighter attack. Regarding the exhaust port identification process, presumably some sort of tactical analysis droid (K-2SO software copy?) was fed the plans and managed to spit out a usable result relatively quickly. Yes, force meditation is a possible time compressor for Obi Wan, but I’m going to invoke Occam’s Razor instead of postulating that he’s in a trance for weeks. Besides, he makes it from… Read more »
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countvertex
I don’t think this knot about travel times and distances will ever fully be untangled. But at least there are more degrees of freedom to work with than just speed and distance. Actually distance becomes much less relevant under the assumption on hyperspace travel made above (–>it’s all in the information, or you could say only the ‘road quality’ limits your driving speed). In that way as an extreme example two points across the galaxy could be effectively ‘closer’ than neighbouring star systems.
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CRMcNeill
I think you’re right; the “knot” can only ever be considered untangled if viewed from a certain point of view. And I agree that there will be extreme examples where planets on opposite sides of the galaxy will be relatively close in travel time terms; I just disagree that it should be the norm.
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Eric Otness
To be fair regarding ROTS, there is some evidence Utapau at least spanned a course of days.
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CRMcNeill
You’re assuming that the evacuation didn’t take place. Notice that, despite the fact that Mon Mothma was present at Yavin in Rogue One, she was nowhere to be seen in ANH. Obviously IRL, that’s because she hadn’t been casted yet, but in-universe chronology would argue that the main leadership of the Alliance had already been evacuated, leaving the fighters and sufficient support and command staff to perform the trench run strike. Re: Kamino to Geonosis, don’t forget he also had a homing device on their hull. In addition, one of the other myriad Jedi abilities is Instinctive Astrogation, which allows… Read more »
Travel happens at the speed of plot. But I think it’s fairly well established that PT/OT galactic travel CAN happen on the order of days. So very low median trip length, but extremely high variance depending on if you need to go via a well mapped route or a manually/recently computed series of routes.
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CRMcNeill
So long as the definition of “very low median trip length” is left open for interpretation, sure. I’d also add that many planets will be located far enough off the beaten path that routes leading to/from them would be considered “rarely traveled,” with the result that the navigation data is nowhere near as reliable as it would be for other, more heavily trafficked routes. Another interesting twist is that, in a data-based navigation system, it’s possible that “well-traveled routes” may only be well-traveled by those with access to navigation coordinates. For example, there is mention in the EU of “Alliance… Read more »
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gorkmalork
I’m strapped for any points to add WRT transit-time averages, but could certainly see the Yavin staff evacuating all non-strike-critical personnel since their location’s been blown (metaphorically) and is bound to be blown (literally) by frothing-pissed conventional forces even if someone pulls off that reactor shot.
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countvertex
What Star Wars desperately needs I think is some kind of writers guideline what the ‘tech stuff’ can and can’t do!
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CRMcNeill
Ideally, that would be handled by the Lucasfilm storygroup, yet they have repeatedly fumbled that ball since taking over.
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Daib
I think the presence of thousands of non-essential personnel and key strategic leaders like Leia and Dodonna at the Yavin awards ceremony shows that the Alliance wasn’t able to evacuate more than a handful of people at best. Besides, the whole point of X and Y-Wings is to not require a base in the immediate vicinity to launch a strike. Given days to prepare, they could have easily gotten everyone off of the moon by recalling the ships that scattered after Scarif and perhaps using a single CR-90 to provide AWACS to the strike package. If you accept Disney materials… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
I don’t accept it; Mothma was the main leader of a galaxy-wide resistance movement that had been in operation for twenty years. Continuing the day-to-day operations of the Alliance would’ve been more important than grieving over the loss of a single city on a single planet (which is really small potatoes on a galactic scale), especially when the Alliance was facing a threat as dire as the Death Star. I’ll add this to the growing pile of evidence that the story group is awful at their jobs. And there are reasons why Leia and Dodonna might choose to stay. Per… Read more »
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Sentinel677
Wasn’t Dodonna the head of the Starfighter Corps for the Rebel Alliance? That is a pretty important position in a military that emphasises star fighters like the Rebel Alliance*. I’d say that would be at least equivalent to a department head in some ways, especially given the state the Rebellion was in circa-Episode IV.
*Wookieepedia says he was double-hatting as head of the Logistics and Supply Corps as well, which would make him even more important. I don’t recall reading that in primary sources myself though.
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CRMcNeill
The source for that is the Essential Guide to Warfare (see pages 154 & 157). I have to say, I’m not a huge fan of the EGtW as a source; I think it reads too much like The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Space Warfare. Yes, there are some good ideas in there, but a lot of it is overly simplistic. This statement about Dodonna’s responsibilities in the Alliance is a case in point; you can’t put that many hats on one person and expect them to do all of them well. Supply & logistics for the Alliance was a shoe-string… Read more »
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Proton
You understand taht you just insulted Fractal, because he was one of EGtW creators?
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otnesse
In McNeill’s defense, Proton, Fractal was more of a contributor of the EGtW than a creator since they mostly used his artwork. And besides, I’m pretty sure McNeill is referring more to the actual lore aspects rather than the artwork with his complaints about the source (I mean, it’s not like he mocked the Bellator’s stats, for example). That bit aside, some Legends EU writers/sourcebooks tend to screw up at times. Take for example the whole deal with the Corporate Sector Authority and the sourcebooks relating to that, especially in relation to the Empire. Do you really think the Empire,… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
A book can have excellent artwork – which the EGtW certainly does – and still be flawed in other ways. I wouldn’t be here if I had any question about Fractal’s abilities as an artist. As far as the CSA, it’s important to remember that the CSA is sourced in the original Brian Daley novels, which predated even WEG. Han Solo at Star’s End was the second EU novel published ever (in 1979. Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was published in 1978). There wasn’t a lot of data on Star Wars to work with back then, but Daley did an… Read more »
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otnesse
Well, Star’s End certainly didn’t have much to work on, now that you mention it. That being said, I think it being hands off from the Empire was a WEG invention, at least that’s what Wookieepedia seemed to indicate. And I get that semi-autonomous corporations exist under the Empire. Heck, even Republican forms of government/democracies sort of have that kind of view (it’s illegal, for example, to have corporations sell products to an engaged enemy, for example, being marked under treason, and actually at worst qualifying under war crimes for more destructive weapons). My problem is that the franchise was… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
I’m not seeing your point. Hitler DID tolerate that degree of autonomy. Look up “Nazi Economy” on Wikipedia; the article is quite specific that Hitler used a largely crony-capitalist model. In particular, this: “The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[10] Cartels and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[11]” People may argue about Wikipedia’s reliability as… Read more »
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otnesse
Regarding the Nazi economy, the Ludwig von Mises institute would beg to differ there, as would lksamuels.com, regarding tolerating that kind of autonomy. Heck, even Albert Speer, one of Hitler’s high ranking Nazi officials (I believe he was the Minister of Armaments and War Production), indicated Hitler didn’t tolerate that kind of autonomy at all (otherwise, I’m pretty sure Speer would not have said regarding the party members placed in charge of various armament companies that many of those in charge of war production were Nazi appointees who knew nothing about their industry and effectively condemn the Nazis for this.).… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
I’m going to need a bit more evidence than “this source begs to differ.” And who said anything about actual autonomy? This is very much a “do as I say and you get to keep making money; screw that up and you will provide a very vivid object lesson to your replacement.” For all of its seeming autonomy, the Corporate Sector would’ve had no chance against a full-up Imperial invasion; all of their heavy ships were old military surplus (Victory-Class SDs and Invincible-Class Dreadnoughts), so the Direx Board knows better than to screw up a good thing. And I’m not… Read more »
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Chris Bradshaw
Doesn’t the Corporate Sector seem much more like Hong Kong than anything under the NSDAP? It’s a free market haven that maintains some special privileges under a much larger and stronger authoritarian power due to a quirk of history, but doesn’t have real sovereignty because the overlord dictates its foreign policy.
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CRMcNeill
That’s a good analogy, certainly as good a one as we’re going to get when comparing the real world with a space opera fictional one. Considering that a cut of the profits and products of the Corporate Sector goes straight to Palpatine and the Empire (bypassing the sector and regional governments), he has a vested interest in letting them run their businesses. The only potential obstacle is to what degree Sith ideology plays into their economic theory, as in, whether their worldview requires top-down centralized planning from a single authority, or if it is content to simply profit from nominally… Read more »
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Eric Otness
Well, it’s certainly a better analogy than how the NSDAP ran things with businesses, I’ll give you both that. Still not entirely sure about that, especially when, technically, if Star Wars and History is to be believed, Mao’s China formed part of the basis for the Rebel Alliance, meaning that if anything, the Old Republic’s interaction is similar to Mao’s china with Hong Kong (and New Republic’s more closer to the Soviet model considering they constantly insist on boycotting the Corporate Sector Authority). Besides, Lucas isn’t a big fan of capitalism as his interview with Charlie Rose indicates, and he… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
The fact that “Star Wars and History” equates a revolution intending to reestablish freedom and a liberal democracy with a revolution intending to establish a totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat tells me that it is not to be believed, unless this is you extrapolating an equation that isn’t actually found in the source material. And I fail to see why Lucas’ personal views on capitalism in the real world have any bearing here. The Soviet Union made excellent use of propaganda in film, especially for internal purposes, and it’s not surprising that a film maker would appreciate the story-telling techniques… Read more »
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Eric Otness
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, had a lot of things come up (not to mention when I was communicating with you, my primary computer was down thanks to a fried power source that took two weeks to replace, so I couldn’t rely on emails). In any case, I’ve emailed lksamuels and asked them for the Speer quote’s source, so you’ll probably get a source on at least the Speer quote sooner or later. I can also direct you to a few links in the meantime making explicit how Hitler did not tolerate that kind of autonomy. For… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
This is a False Analogy Fallacy. You’re asserting that despots must behave according to a predetermined cookie-cutter pattern of behavior, and are completely incapable of acting outside of it. All of the names you list are ideologues, whether Communist or Fascist. You have no factual basis to assert that a Sith Emperor must behave in the same fashion as historical ideologues, as opposed to being a realist with a pragmatic approach to power whose connection to the Force provides him with a much deeper understanding of human (or alien, as the case may be) motivation and how to manipulate it.… Read more »
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gorkmalork
Come to think of it, there was definitely at least enough timeskip to fix R2 up between Luke/Chewie & Han/Wedge/Sole Surviving Y-wing Crew’s return and the ceremony. That *might’ve* been enough of a return window for personnel emergency-jumped into a nearby system (and braced to *really* run when/if Yavin went up).
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CRMcNeill
I had a similar thought, but I wasn’t sure how to justify it. Considering the cost in fuel and flight hours – plus the fact that the Alliance would be almost immediately abandoning Yavin IV anyway – it seems rather wasteful to bring them all back just for an awards ceremony…
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gorkmalork
Well, retrieving the strike-coordination staff who *didn’t* wind up getting vaped for the cause was probably justification enough for detaching at least a transport…and now that I mull it further, perhaps (a portion of?) the evac fleet was using the gas giant for cover, detected DS1’s demise & figured they could squeeze in a 15-minute Morale Event before hauling ass.
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CRMcNeill
That’s fair, and works within the context of what we’re discussing.
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Daib
Or perhaps Tarkin had reason to order radio (holonet?) silence from the Death Star before departing for Yavin. Perhaps he didn’t want it known among the Imperial fleet that the Rebels were there for fear that some other local fleet asset or independent task force would show up first, conduct a conventional bombardment of the moon, and claim all the credit for his work. If Rebel informers within Imperial intelligence could confirm that the wider Empire wasn’t immediately aware of the whole Yavin debacle, they could reasonably believe that they had a bit more time to stay on Yavin and… Read more »
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CRMcNeill
I think radio silence is certainly plausible, as is your reasoning behind it, but somehow I don’t see the Alliance just sitting around waiting for word that the Empire wasn’t coming after them after all. Intel like that would take a bit to make it through the pipeline all the way up to Alliance Intel command on Yavin, and until they got it, they’d have to expect and plan for the worst-case scenario. Now, I /can/ see a radio silence order from Tarkin being a major contributor in giving the Alliance time to evacuate. With Tarkin dead and the Death… Read more »
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Waittt OKon
How do we know which is more accurate in contextualizing travel times: the maps made available online or the classic series of 6 films and their production notes? I am appalled if pre-production work for any of the movies did not involve a conversion chart, calculator, pen and octant.
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CRMcNeill
Honestly, considering how haphazard development of the EU proved to be, I’d be very surprised if anyone thought that far ahead. From what I understand, Lucas was relatively hands-off with WEG, only telling them that they couldn’t do anything in detail on the Clone Wars. WEG then developed the core framework of the hyperspace route & multiplier system which either shaped or influenced everything subsequent to it up until Disney purged the EU (to make way for a new, different, even less well-thought-out EU, but I digress). Disney doesn’t appear to have announced an out-and-out change of the system, but… Read more »
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Daib
At least there’s Leeland Chee and a holocron continuity database this time around. Progress?
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CRMcNeill
Hopefully. I just don’t get the impression Darth Maus pays as much attention to him as they should.
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gorkmalork
I do have to wonder what share of the *onscreen* technical kriffups were directorially imposed on the SG, but stuff like the super-duper crystal TLs certainly strikes me as extraneous wank-fiat. Speaking of which: while I realize Disneyboot animation is about on the same tech-credibility level as WWII flicks featuring Popeye, the ‘Resistance’ season finale caps off with a partly-submerged-for-the-whole-season depot/space station sloooowly cruising up to minimum lightspeed-jump distance from the planet…and a Resurgent drops in to start shooting at it for roughly a minute before said jump is made. With more/less nil damage beyond shield degradation. Granted, said scene… Read more »
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PhoenixKnight
Extra armor?
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PhoenixKnight
is sensor Dome is ISD standard then this might be a battlecruiser size ball park
And the Bulge in the front might in IMO be related to logistical purposes
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PhoenixKnight
The dome looks smaller on the this bridge than the one in the ISD bridge
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Cdr. Rajh
Wow, the 4th image looks so terrifyingly epic! I’d hate to be staring that down in any ship short of another dreadnought or battlecruiser.
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gorkmalork
That main reactor dome lends the beast some ominous extra heft in those two near-prow-on shots. Plus, neatly-blended bow missile tubes & guidance aerials.
93 comments within a month
Weapon Count Update:
PD Turrets: 835
Quad Medium Turbolaser Turrets: 108
Quad Heavy Turbolaser Turrets: 42
Octuple Heavy Turbolaser Barbettes: 20
Twin UltraHeavy Turbolaser Turrets: 24
Quad Heavy Ion Cannon Ball Turrets: 14
Missile Launch Tubes: 108
I haven’t counted tractor beam projectors so far. If you’d like me to do so, let me know.
Though I admire the lack of blue tint in things like Star Wars Revisited projects, something about seeing that hue casted upon a ship to give out that cold feeling hits a chord!
Fractal, if you have the time, would you be willing to upload an image of the Bellator’s weapon palate? I know for a fact that you put a great deal of effort into every detail and it’s a shame that the smallest weapons tend to get lost in the larger images.
you should upload to sketchfab so we can view its full glory!
Assuming both sides of the ship have an equivalent amount of weapon, I counted 325 PD turrets on the trenches alone.
Including the bow turrets, it’s 421 by my count. 26 8 turret batteries on either side plus the 5 on the bow. I may have miscounted, but I’ve been as careful as I can be with my count.
You’re right, I actually missed a section of the trench.
Just as beautiful as the original! I also love the lighting in the 65th and 66th pictures looks precisely like the lighting you’d see in the original trilogy. Simply amazing.
I wonder how far into the outer rim these flagship Bellators could travel. The pictures you mention look like they are en route to Tatooine haha.
I just had a terrible idea: 3D print Fractal sponge models on a massive 3D printer.
Shame that unless you’re willing to invest thousands, nay, tens of thousands, it wouldn’t work.
Oh its been done!
https://www.deviantart.com/the-white-tiger/art/BELLATOR-CLASS-STAR-DESTROYER-COMPLETED-3-270918848
That is definitely the right idea. That level of detail, makes you wonder if any game devs are approaching Fractal to do some early mockups of their own space fantasies.
Are those forward torpedo tubes in shot #2?
Probably. You can generally distinguish those from, say, tractor-beam dishes or other round widgets ’cause our host tends to plant short rows of ’em on heavier ship designs.
Oh man! Soooooooo excited to try out the slide, too!
[Same shot, just left of the tubes.]
Just remember: dianogas *always* get right of way (and any shiny stuff you didn’t leave in the locker).
“The ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the power of Fractalsponge.”
love it man its amazing!!
Hi Fractal, do you have anything planned for this ship unknown ship from DE?
Looks like it has dome on top of the hull, bridge in the middle of the ship and some bulky square superstructure behinde?
Really weird for KDY design.
P.s. Amazing work, as always.
That dome look like a gravity well generator.
Perhaps it could be a carrier, taking design cues from real life examples, i.e: a control tower on one side?
Whilst I’m replying to this, what about the Chiss star destroyer. It’s described as being smaller than the ISD, with all weak points (let’s say large points) removed.
Thanks
Wet-navy carriers use offset control faciliities ’cause their air wings need every inch of possible launch/recovery/storage/maintenance space; said resources are much less of a problem for your average kilometer-and-change-scale SW ship with hover-capable fighters & tractor beams. This ship’s asymmetric tower *might* be a ‘simple’ case of hastily-field-patched battle damage.
The “bulky square” is increased hangar bay and probably spacing for elevators for launching absolute clouds of TIE fighters (see the Rogue One scene where Scarif shield depot is doing the same)
Dunno if I’d stick dorsal hangar ports & a grav-well projector that close together; this one might be an otherwise-conventional Impstar-ballpark destroyer with moderate interdiction capability. Since our host already has a quad-projector Dominator-class render, doubtful overhauling this particular Dark Horse doodle would move up the queue without a commission.
I don’t think its a grav-well projector, IIRC its a secondary reactor section, nowhere near as powerful as the main reactor but still damn powerful, giving this ship all the energy and thrust she needs.
I was under the impression most dagger-style ship designs keep ‘tender’ bits like launch bays & protruding reactor bits on the ventral surface so their generally-better-armed dorsal facings can be oriented toward peer opponents with less risk of a vital component hit.
Thanks for the clarification gorkmalork, I agree the Interdiction capable cruisers we have seen in Star Wars lore use up a ton of interior space to run the disruption dome projectors. My only other guess is a refueling / refit service platform is berthed against it.
So a destroyer variant with the ability to top off frigates & corvettes? Could be handy for long-range patrols.
Under what circumstances would refueling via dedicated tanker be more efficient than jumping back to a regional fleet base? When warships are never more than a few hours from a base rather than days/weeks, the operational paradigm seems much more like WW2 aircraft than wet-navy operations.
A few things I can think of: – Surprise – fixed bases might be under surveillance. One assumes Grievous’ Deep Core run on Coruscant was made via tanker support – Efficiency – if you can refuel and be back in line in an hour vs several hours, that’s worth it. If rare enough, some specialized ships like EW/Comscan ships you might NEVER want to be offline or far from combat if you can avoid it because you never have enough – Speed – you need to get to where you want to go fast, and there’s no time to detour… Read more »
How long of a range do you think capital ships have? Civilian pleasure craft can seemingly cross the galaxy without need of refueling, while you would think that dedicated warships would devote much more of their mass and volume to fuel than random yachts.
One of the last entries in ship hyperspace ranges fully fueled was in Clone Wars Cross Sections, now redacted from canon. It does give some insight into the fueling needs when you realize the smaller cruisers (ones capable of atmospheric operation) in the Clone Wars also had better hyperspace range than their heavy-hitter command ships. My guess, the Empire needs service-capable Destroyers not to increase fleet range, but to reach more of the fleet.
IMO, that was one of the more short-sighted changes made to the SWU in the Disney era. Star Wars drew so much space combat inspiration from the WW1/2 era that transit times measured in days or weeks seemed perfectly normal, and also did much to explain the Alliance’s successes in the Outer Rim regions, as the Empire was spread thin and reinforcements were often quite far away. Transit times of hours or days within a sector – especially once off of major hyperspace lanes – made sense, but applying those same numbers to trans-galactic travel was an unforced error. Just… Read more »
You can’t completely blame the distances on Disney. It’s always been somewhat fast to travel across the SW galaxy, dating back to the OT and the not-months journey from Tatooine to Alderaan. There was plenty of space so to speak for regional and specific variation in travel times, but one could get across the galaxy pretty fast pre-canon transition.
1
That’s true, but it went from being the exception (as in, between planets that were located on or conveniently close to a major hyperspace route) to the rule. Now it seems like every possible hyperspace jump from even middle-of-nowhere locations (like Crait in TLJ) are a matter of hours away from planets located on the other side of the galaxy. And even jumps that could be plausibly explained away as being “somewhat nearby” get ruined by the story group deliberately placing the planets on the other side of the galaxy, even when there is no need to. It’s an unforced… Read more »
I’m curious. Who’s on your list?
In all fairness, it would probably end up being more than five. Who wants to volunteer? I mean, literally volunteer: it’s an unpaid position, but the entirety of content in the SWU would have to get your stamp of approval. I know I’d be on that list…
but that could also mean we could see ‘The Book’
Sounds fun enough. I use to run an SW roleplay room and added a travel time mechanic to the chagrin of the people inside, but it’s really their own fault for jumping across the galaxy in a Class 2 rustbucket and it taking 2 irl weeks.
Check their perception by breaking Hyperdrive and making backup hyperdrive 12 class.
Would be fun to GM, but awful for the player haha
It will tell them that spaceship is more then metal box with engines.
That is inportant in my opinion.
you can say something like ” You start piloting the ship and notice something strange in controls”
Under typical D&D sense, it would definately be cool for sure and give more value in ships than just some segue material!
Au contraire. A damaged hyperdrive and having to limp your way to the nearest inhabited system on your backup is a classic adventure hook with a long and glorious tradition.
See, that is what I would do if it’s me. Unfortunately, the majority of the people present at the time dislikes the mechanic (because, again, it takes irl time (I will say this though, the place ran at x3 speed, and some trips still take weeks)) and are mostly singleminded to only reach their destination, so if I even mention the aspect of hyperdrive damage upon them, it’d make for some volatile atmosphere.
Ah, the sweet, sweet tears of a band of space-going murder hobos when things don’t go exactly according to plan.
While the nectar is indeed sweet, it is laced with a poison named grudge, haha
True. Easy to forget that just because the Falcon can make a super-fast jump doesn’t make it normal for everyone else.
I bet I know
On who’s who on the ‘List’
I remember the idea has been out there, that in hyperspace travel time is not defined by a limit on the max velocity of a ship – meaning ships could in principle go arbitrarily fast – , but rather by the availability of data on hyperspace routes, processing power of the nav computer, and maybe the willingness of the pilot to take risks. So with very accurate, up-to-date data, a top shelf navicomputer and some recklessness you can jump vast distances in a short time.
I have theorized elsewhere that the link for availability of data on hyperspace routes is the BoSS (Bureau of Ships & Services). The short version is that hyperspace course data is downloaded from starships to the local BoSS office as part of their regular maintenance and servicing. BoSS is semi-autonomous even during the Imperial era, and has offices all across the galaxy. This is done voluntarily in exchange for getting updated data charts either for free or at a large discount. BoSS then crunches the data it receives on a given route from all the ships that have traveled that… Read more »
Not sure how much of that is Disney and how much was already established. The Death Star was able to make it from Alderaan to Yavin only a few hours behind the Falcon, and if the Empire had the constant navigational data for that sort of jump, Yavin would have been a pretty awful place to put your Rebel strategic high command. Obi Wan was similarly able to get from Coruscant to Kamino in a few hours, a planet so isolated that it was wiped from the archives and no one noticed. He was then able to make it to… Read more »
That’s largely a matter of perception. Was it only a few hours from Alderaan to Yavin, or was it several days? I question whether it would’ve taken just a few hours of study of the plans to identify the exhaust port weakness. It’s also an established part of the fandom that Jedi are able to extend the operational range of starfighters by going into a hibernation trance, so again, how quickly Obi-wan traveled to Kamino and then Geonosis is largely a matter of perception. Yes, it /could/ be a matter of hours, but it could also take several days, with… Read more »
If the Death Star took several days to arrive at Yavin after the Falcon, there would be plenty of time to recall scattered fleet assets and conduct an orderly evacuation instead of a desperate do-or-die snubfighter attack. Regarding the exhaust port identification process, presumably some sort of tactical analysis droid (K-2SO software copy?) was fed the plans and managed to spit out a usable result relatively quickly. Yes, force meditation is a possible time compressor for Obi Wan, but I’m going to invoke Occam’s Razor instead of postulating that he’s in a trance for weeks. Besides, he makes it from… Read more »
I don’t think this knot about travel times and distances will ever fully be untangled. But at least there are more degrees of freedom to work with than just speed and distance. Actually distance becomes much less relevant under the assumption on hyperspace travel made above (–>it’s all in the information, or you could say only the ‘road quality’ limits your driving speed). In that way as an extreme example two points across the galaxy could be effectively ‘closer’ than neighbouring star systems.
I think you’re right; the “knot” can only ever be considered untangled if viewed from a certain point of view. And I agree that there will be extreme examples where planets on opposite sides of the galaxy will be relatively close in travel time terms; I just disagree that it should be the norm.
To be fair regarding ROTS, there is some evidence Utapau at least spanned a course of days.
You’re assuming that the evacuation didn’t take place. Notice that, despite the fact that Mon Mothma was present at Yavin in Rogue One, she was nowhere to be seen in ANH. Obviously IRL, that’s because she hadn’t been casted yet, but in-universe chronology would argue that the main leadership of the Alliance had already been evacuated, leaving the fighters and sufficient support and command staff to perform the trench run strike. Re: Kamino to Geonosis, don’t forget he also had a homing device on their hull. In addition, one of the other myriad Jedi abilities is Instinctive Astrogation, which allows… Read more »
Travel happens at the speed of plot. But I think it’s fairly well established that PT/OT galactic travel CAN happen on the order of days. So very low median trip length, but extremely high variance depending on if you need to go via a well mapped route or a manually/recently computed series of routes.
So long as the definition of “very low median trip length” is left open for interpretation, sure. I’d also add that many planets will be located far enough off the beaten path that routes leading to/from them would be considered “rarely traveled,” with the result that the navigation data is nowhere near as reliable as it would be for other, more heavily trafficked routes. Another interesting twist is that, in a data-based navigation system, it’s possible that “well-traveled routes” may only be well-traveled by those with access to navigation coordinates. For example, there is mention in the EU of “Alliance… Read more »
I’m strapped for any points to add WRT transit-time averages, but could certainly see the Yavin staff evacuating all non-strike-critical personnel since their location’s been blown (metaphorically) and is bound to be blown (literally) by frothing-pissed conventional forces even if someone pulls off that reactor shot.
What Star Wars desperately needs I think is some kind of writers guideline what the ‘tech stuff’ can and can’t do!
Ideally, that would be handled by the Lucasfilm storygroup, yet they have repeatedly fumbled that ball since taking over.
I think the presence of thousands of non-essential personnel and key strategic leaders like Leia and Dodonna at the Yavin awards ceremony shows that the Alliance wasn’t able to evacuate more than a handful of people at best. Besides, the whole point of X and Y-Wings is to not require a base in the immediate vicinity to launch a strike. Given days to prepare, they could have easily gotten everyone off of the moon by recalling the ships that scattered after Scarif and perhaps using a single CR-90 to provide AWACS to the strike package. If you accept Disney materials… Read more »
I don’t accept it; Mothma was the main leader of a galaxy-wide resistance movement that had been in operation for twenty years. Continuing the day-to-day operations of the Alliance would’ve been more important than grieving over the loss of a single city on a single planet (which is really small potatoes on a galactic scale), especially when the Alliance was facing a threat as dire as the Death Star. I’ll add this to the growing pile of evidence that the story group is awful at their jobs. And there are reasons why Leia and Dodonna might choose to stay. Per… Read more »
Wasn’t Dodonna the head of the Starfighter Corps for the Rebel Alliance? That is a pretty important position in a military that emphasises star fighters like the Rebel Alliance*. I’d say that would be at least equivalent to a department head in some ways, especially given the state the Rebellion was in circa-Episode IV.
*Wookieepedia says he was double-hatting as head of the Logistics and Supply Corps as well, which would make him even more important. I don’t recall reading that in primary sources myself though.
The source for that is the Essential Guide to Warfare (see pages 154 & 157). I have to say, I’m not a huge fan of the EGtW as a source; I think it reads too much like The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Space Warfare. Yes, there are some good ideas in there, but a lot of it is overly simplistic. This statement about Dodonna’s responsibilities in the Alliance is a case in point; you can’t put that many hats on one person and expect them to do all of them well. Supply & logistics for the Alliance was a shoe-string… Read more »
You understand taht you just insulted Fractal, because he was one of EGtW creators?
In McNeill’s defense, Proton, Fractal was more of a contributor of the EGtW than a creator since they mostly used his artwork. And besides, I’m pretty sure McNeill is referring more to the actual lore aspects rather than the artwork with his complaints about the source (I mean, it’s not like he mocked the Bellator’s stats, for example). That bit aside, some Legends EU writers/sourcebooks tend to screw up at times. Take for example the whole deal with the Corporate Sector Authority and the sourcebooks relating to that, especially in relation to the Empire. Do you really think the Empire,… Read more »
A book can have excellent artwork – which the EGtW certainly does – and still be flawed in other ways. I wouldn’t be here if I had any question about Fractal’s abilities as an artist. As far as the CSA, it’s important to remember that the CSA is sourced in the original Brian Daley novels, which predated even WEG. Han Solo at Star’s End was the second EU novel published ever (in 1979. Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was published in 1978). There wasn’t a lot of data on Star Wars to work with back then, but Daley did an… Read more »
Well, Star’s End certainly didn’t have much to work on, now that you mention it. That being said, I think it being hands off from the Empire was a WEG invention, at least that’s what Wookieepedia seemed to indicate. And I get that semi-autonomous corporations exist under the Empire. Heck, even Republican forms of government/democracies sort of have that kind of view (it’s illegal, for example, to have corporations sell products to an engaged enemy, for example, being marked under treason, and actually at worst qualifying under war crimes for more destructive weapons). My problem is that the franchise was… Read more »
I’m not seeing your point. Hitler DID tolerate that degree of autonomy. Look up “Nazi Economy” on Wikipedia; the article is quite specific that Hitler used a largely crony-capitalist model. In particular, this: “The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[10] Cartels and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[11]” People may argue about Wikipedia’s reliability as… Read more »
Regarding the Nazi economy, the Ludwig von Mises institute would beg to differ there, as would lksamuels.com, regarding tolerating that kind of autonomy. Heck, even Albert Speer, one of Hitler’s high ranking Nazi officials (I believe he was the Minister of Armaments and War Production), indicated Hitler didn’t tolerate that kind of autonomy at all (otherwise, I’m pretty sure Speer would not have said regarding the party members placed in charge of various armament companies that many of those in charge of war production were Nazi appointees who knew nothing about their industry and effectively condemn the Nazis for this.).… Read more »
I’m going to need a bit more evidence than “this source begs to differ.” And who said anything about actual autonomy? This is very much a “do as I say and you get to keep making money; screw that up and you will provide a very vivid object lesson to your replacement.” For all of its seeming autonomy, the Corporate Sector would’ve had no chance against a full-up Imperial invasion; all of their heavy ships were old military surplus (Victory-Class SDs and Invincible-Class Dreadnoughts), so the Direx Board knows better than to screw up a good thing. And I’m not… Read more »
Doesn’t the Corporate Sector seem much more like Hong Kong than anything under the NSDAP? It’s a free market haven that maintains some special privileges under a much larger and stronger authoritarian power due to a quirk of history, but doesn’t have real sovereignty because the overlord dictates its foreign policy.
That’s a good analogy, certainly as good a one as we’re going to get when comparing the real world with a space opera fictional one. Considering that a cut of the profits and products of the Corporate Sector goes straight to Palpatine and the Empire (bypassing the sector and regional governments), he has a vested interest in letting them run their businesses. The only potential obstacle is to what degree Sith ideology plays into their economic theory, as in, whether their worldview requires top-down centralized planning from a single authority, or if it is content to simply profit from nominally… Read more »
Well, it’s certainly a better analogy than how the NSDAP ran things with businesses, I’ll give you both that. Still not entirely sure about that, especially when, technically, if Star Wars and History is to be believed, Mao’s China formed part of the basis for the Rebel Alliance, meaning that if anything, the Old Republic’s interaction is similar to Mao’s china with Hong Kong (and New Republic’s more closer to the Soviet model considering they constantly insist on boycotting the Corporate Sector Authority). Besides, Lucas isn’t a big fan of capitalism as his interview with Charlie Rose indicates, and he… Read more »
The fact that “Star Wars and History” equates a revolution intending to reestablish freedom and a liberal democracy with a revolution intending to establish a totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat tells me that it is not to be believed, unless this is you extrapolating an equation that isn’t actually found in the source material. And I fail to see why Lucas’ personal views on capitalism in the real world have any bearing here. The Soviet Union made excellent use of propaganda in film, especially for internal purposes, and it’s not surprising that a film maker would appreciate the story-telling techniques… Read more »
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, had a lot of things come up (not to mention when I was communicating with you, my primary computer was down thanks to a fried power source that took two weeks to replace, so I couldn’t rely on emails). In any case, I’ve emailed lksamuels and asked them for the Speer quote’s source, so you’ll probably get a source on at least the Speer quote sooner or later. I can also direct you to a few links in the meantime making explicit how Hitler did not tolerate that kind of autonomy. For… Read more »
This is a False Analogy Fallacy. You’re asserting that despots must behave according to a predetermined cookie-cutter pattern of behavior, and are completely incapable of acting outside of it. All of the names you list are ideologues, whether Communist or Fascist. You have no factual basis to assert that a Sith Emperor must behave in the same fashion as historical ideologues, as opposed to being a realist with a pragmatic approach to power whose connection to the Force provides him with a much deeper understanding of human (or alien, as the case may be) motivation and how to manipulate it.… Read more »
Come to think of it, there was definitely at least enough timeskip to fix R2 up between Luke/Chewie & Han/Wedge/Sole Surviving Y-wing Crew’s return and the ceremony. That *might’ve* been enough of a return window for personnel emergency-jumped into a nearby system (and braced to *really* run when/if Yavin went up).
I had a similar thought, but I wasn’t sure how to justify it. Considering the cost in fuel and flight hours – plus the fact that the Alliance would be almost immediately abandoning Yavin IV anyway – it seems rather wasteful to bring them all back just for an awards ceremony…
Well, retrieving the strike-coordination staff who *didn’t* wind up getting vaped for the cause was probably justification enough for detaching at least a transport…and now that I mull it further, perhaps (a portion of?) the evac fleet was using the gas giant for cover, detected DS1’s demise & figured they could squeeze in a 15-minute Morale Event before hauling ass.
That’s fair, and works within the context of what we’re discussing.
Or perhaps Tarkin had reason to order radio (holonet?) silence from the Death Star before departing for Yavin. Perhaps he didn’t want it known among the Imperial fleet that the Rebels were there for fear that some other local fleet asset or independent task force would show up first, conduct a conventional bombardment of the moon, and claim all the credit for his work. If Rebel informers within Imperial intelligence could confirm that the wider Empire wasn’t immediately aware of the whole Yavin debacle, they could reasonably believe that they had a bit more time to stay on Yavin and… Read more »
I think radio silence is certainly plausible, as is your reasoning behind it, but somehow I don’t see the Alliance just sitting around waiting for word that the Empire wasn’t coming after them after all. Intel like that would take a bit to make it through the pipeline all the way up to Alliance Intel command on Yavin, and until they got it, they’d have to expect and plan for the worst-case scenario. Now, I /can/ see a radio silence order from Tarkin being a major contributor in giving the Alliance time to evacuate. With Tarkin dead and the Death… Read more »
How do we know which is more accurate in contextualizing travel times: the maps made available online or the classic series of 6 films and their production notes? I am appalled if pre-production work for any of the movies did not involve a conversion chart, calculator, pen and octant.
Honestly, considering how haphazard development of the EU proved to be, I’d be very surprised if anyone thought that far ahead. From what I understand, Lucas was relatively hands-off with WEG, only telling them that they couldn’t do anything in detail on the Clone Wars. WEG then developed the core framework of the hyperspace route & multiplier system which either shaped or influenced everything subsequent to it up until Disney purged the EU (to make way for a new, different, even less well-thought-out EU, but I digress). Disney doesn’t appear to have announced an out-and-out change of the system, but… Read more »
At least there’s Leeland Chee and a holocron continuity database this time around. Progress?
Hopefully. I just don’t get the impression Darth Maus pays as much attention to him as they should.
I do have to wonder what share of the *onscreen* technical kriffups were directorially imposed on the SG, but stuff like the super-duper crystal TLs certainly strikes me as extraneous wank-fiat. Speaking of which: while I realize Disneyboot animation is about on the same tech-credibility level as WWII flicks featuring Popeye, the ‘Resistance’ season finale caps off with a partly-submerged-for-the-whole-season depot/space station sloooowly cruising up to minimum lightspeed-jump distance from the planet…and a Resurgent drops in to start shooting at it for roughly a minute before said jump is made. With more/less nil damage beyond shield degradation. Granted, said scene… Read more »
Extra armor?
is sensor Dome is ISD standard then this might be a battlecruiser size ball park
And the Bulge in the front might in IMO be related to logistical purposes
The dome looks smaller on the this bridge than the one in the ISD bridge
Wow, the 4th image looks so terrifyingly epic! I’d hate to be staring that down in any ship short of another dreadnought or battlecruiser.
That main reactor dome lends the beast some ominous extra heft in those two near-prow-on shots. Plus, neatly-blended bow missile tubes & guidance aerials.