Surface orders of battle

As a quick scaling exercise, and to further discussion about organization, I’ve updated my hypothetical charts for some tweaked surface formations. Math subject to error and future tweaking.

Basic assumptions:

Scale assumptions are based on standing volume for walkers with no storage-contortions for any vehicle.

Battalion is smallest independent unit, which means that it has some level of organic logistical support (support troops (incl artillery) first assigned at this level).

Generally quadrilateral organization + 1 command vehicle per subunit, except for very large vehicles where command functions can be put into a line vehicle without much disruption to functions, or artillery where HQ element is not on the vehicles themselves.

No provision for specialist sourcebook formations (assault, etc) or for “infantry” only formations – assume all units are AFV equipped for storage purposes. Light units (soft-skinned transport) are trivial volume wise compared to AFV formations. No volume provision for bikes (also not voluminous), but I would assume ratio of 1 bike platoon per battalion troops allocation (scale up accordingly).

Support units are scaled for appropriate vehicles to be supported. i.e. a Scythe unit’s support vehicles are about Scythe-sized. Since these units are not modeled, they are subject to change. Where a vehicle doesn’t make sense for a role (i.e. Broadsword as an artillery unit, assume it’s a scaling placeholder, or a variant).

Basic soft-skinned engineering and logsitical vehicles held at divisional level and above are not designed and not depicted. I assume that many of these functions are landed as containerized cargo rather than in an assault transport.

 

Building-block formations:

Heavy armor
platoon – 3 Scythe + 1
company – 16 + 1 Scythe
battalion – 3 company Scythe, 1 command platoon, 1 company heavy artillery, 1 company battalion troops – 3 platoon TX130 or equivalent (scout), 2 platoons Broadsword equivalent vehicles (support), platoon chariot equivalent vehicles (command and coordination)
Total battalion: 51+4 Scythe + 16 Scythe/5 Broadsword + (15 TX130 + 10 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
= 71 Scythe + 15 Broadsword + 15 TX130 + 10 chariot

Repulsorlift
platoon – 4 Broadsword + 1
company – 20 + 1
battalion – 3 company Broadsword, 1 command platoon, 1 company artillery, 1 company battalion troops – 3 platoon TX130, 2 platoons Broadsword equivalent, platoon chariot equivalent
Total battalion: 68 Broadsword + 17 Broadsword/5 chariot + (15 TX130 + 10 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
= 95 Broadsword + 15 TX130 + 10 chariot

Artillery
platoon – 4 Broadsword equivalent + 1 chariot equivalent
heavy platoon – 3 Scythe equivalent + 1 Broadsword equivalent
company – (16 + 1) Broadsword + (4 + 1) chariot equivalent
heavy company – 12 Scythe + 4 + 1 Broadsword equivalent
battalion – 2 company, 2 heavy company, Broadsword company (support), 1 company battalion troops
Total battalion: (34 Broadsword/10 chariot) + (24 Scythe/10 Broadsword) + (17 Broadsword/5 chariot) + (15 TX130 + 10 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
= 24 Scythe + 71 Broadsword + 15 TX130 + 20 chariot

Light armor
platoon – 4 TX130 + 1
company – 20 + 1 TX130
battalion – 3 company TX130, 1 command platoon, 1 company artillery, 1 company battalion troops (15 Broadsword heavy support + 10 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
Total battalion: (68 TX130) + (17 Broadsword/5 chariot) + (25 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
= 68 TX130 + 42 Broadsword + 10 chariot

Walker (mechanized infantry)
platoon – 1 AT-AT
company – 4 + 1 AT-AT
battalion – 3 company AT-AT + 1 command walker + 3 AT-ACT + 3 platoon light walker (scout)
Total battalion: 16 AT-AT + 3 AT-ACT + 15 AT-ST (ISD complement = 2 battalions)

Combat Walker
platoon – 3 AT-SW + 1
company – 16 + 1
battalion – 3 company AT-SW and 1 AT-AT command walker + 1 company battalion troops (15 scout walker, 3 AT-ACT)
Total battalion: (51 AT-SW) + 1 AT-AT + 15 AT-ST + 3 AT-ACT

Heavy Combat Walker
platoon – 1 AT-SE
company – 4 + 1
battalion – 3 company AT-SE + 1 command + 3 AT-ACT + 3 platoon light walker (scout)
Total battalion: (16 AT-SE) + 3 AT-ACT + 15 AT-ST

Light Walker
platoon – 3 AT-ST or -DP +1
company – 16 + 1
battalion – 3 company, 1 command walker (AT-AT), 3 AT-ACT + 15 AT-SW support element
Total battalion: (51 AT-ST) + 1 AT-AT + 15 AT-SW + 3 AT-ACT

Heavy artillery (SPHA)
platoon – 1 SPHA
battery/company – 6 SPHA
battalion – 3 company + 1 support vehicle company (A6)
Total battalion – 18 SPHA + 1 A6

Assault Walker
company – 1 AT-SP
battalion – 4
regiment – 3 battalion + 1 A6 company (support)
Total regiment: 12 AT-SP + 1 A6

A6
company – 1 A6
battalion – 4
regiment – 3 battalion + 1 A6 company (support)
Total regiment: 13 A6

Airmobile
Platoon – 1 LAAV/i
Company – 3 + 1
Battalion – 3 company + 1 HQ
Regiment – 3 Battalion + 1 HQ + 1 company battalion troops
Total regiment: 43 LAAV/i

 

Hypothetical “generic” Corps OOB:

2x Battlegroup/legion:
3 regiment (2x repulsorlift, 1x light armor, 1x heavy armor battalion each) + regimental troops (1 repulsorlift battalion equivalent)
2×95 + 42 + 27 + 95 = 354 Broadsword
2×15 + 68 + 15 + 15 = 128 TX130
71 Scythe
2×10 + 10 + 10 + 10 = 50 chariot

1 artillery regiment (4x artillery battalion)
4×71 + 95 = 379 Broadsword
4×24 = 96 Scythe
4×15 + 15 = 75 TX130
4×20 + 10 = 90 chariot

1 heavy battalion HQ/support element
34 Scythe
27 Broadsword
15 TX130
10 chariot

Total/battlegroup = 343 Scythe, 1468 Broadsword, 474 TX-130, 250 chariot

2x Assault battlegroup/legion:

1 walker infantry regiment (2x AT-AT battalion, 1x AT-SW battalion, 1x light walker battalion)
2×16 = 32 AT-AT
2×3 + 3 + 3 = 12 AT-ACT/AT equivalent
51 + 15 = 66 AT-SW + (1 + 1 AT-AT)
2×15 + 15 + 51 = 96 AT-ST

1 combat walker regiment (2x AT-SE battalion, 1x AT-SW battalion, 1x light walker battalion)
2×16 = 32 AT-SE
2×3 + 3 + 3 = 12 AT-ACT/AT equivalent
51+15 = 66 AT-SW + (1 + 1 AT-AT)
2×15 + 15 + 51 = 96 AT-ST

1 Assault walker regiment
12 AT-SP
Total: 1 A6

1 A6 regiment
13 A6
1 A6 HQ battalion
Total: 4 A6

Total/battlegroup = 12 AT-SP, 18 A6, 36 AT-AT, 24 AT-ACT, 32 AT-SE, 132 AT-SW, 192 AT-ST

Corps troops:

2 SPHA regiment (2 SPHA battalion each, 72 SPHA, 4 A6)

2 airmobile regiment

1 scout regiment (2x light armor battalion, 1x light walker battalion, 1x repulsorlift battalion)

Dropships

1 repulsorlift regiment equivalent vehicles

Engineering elements

 

Usage and drop capacity

My idea is that the ship should be able to drop an assault echelon comprising as much as possible of the surface-contact battlegroups at once to assault a shield generator, allowing for the ship to land or enter atmosphere and release the repulsorlift units as a second echelon/operational maneuver group. Repulsorlift should be able to mass sortie from the bays once in atmosphere/low altitude.

Primary dropship assets are the Chi, potentially up to 20+ units per Consolidator, and Zeta carryalls, probably 100-200 potentially carried in a ship of this volume (they are roughly 2X LAAV/i volume). Infantry dropships are LAAV/i’s – my Imperial era LAAT. Zetas can carry one of any walker below AT-SP size, but can’t lift A6 type craft.

Chi class ships can lift: 2 SPHA/A6, 8 AT-AT/AT-ACT (will probably need special leg folding for ACT, but doable), ~8 AT-SE, ~12 AT-SW, many scout walker (volume terms assuming some compression is like 4x3x2 per AT-AT volume, so almost full assault legion light walkers in 1 lift). A modified Chi without the lift system and ramps could sling an AT-SP in a heavy carryall manner.

An assault loaded ship would probably prioritize enclosed dropships – load a single vehicle in at base, and manipulate the vehicle and its dropship as one volume in the hangar, and don’t open it until it’s deployed. This would be something like a Theta-class AT-AT barge – single walker but most importantly a single SPHA-T. A Titan could probably serve the same purpose for an AT-SP. A Chi carryall would probably better for re-positioning after the initial assault, but by then repulsorlift units would be under the shielding and doing most of the work.

I think a reasonable single lift for the dropship force would be:

1 assault battlegroup drop layout, single lift:

  • 12 AT-SPs in 1 drop (Titan or Chi heavy carryall variant)
  • 4 Chi for AT-ATs
  • 4 Chi for AT-SEs
  • 3 Chi for AT-ACTs
  • 6 Chi for 2x SPHA batteries or full A6 regiment lift
  • 1 Chi for extra A6 (1 for AT-SP support, 1 assault echelon commander in A6 regiment HQ vehicle)
  • 1 Chi for most of AT-ST complement of battlegroup
  • Pre-loading the SPHA force in Theta-sized barges would enable a single sortie of both SPHA regiments to support the assault wave.
  • ~100 Zeta for both AT-SW battalions and for walker mobility after landing, also for deploying and moving containerized logistics and support systems
  • The Chi force will take a large number of scout repulsortanks, chariot type light vehicles, bikes and skimmers in upper bays during each lift
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Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago

For Example, a Regiment In the Imperium Of Man Is about The Equivalent to an Oversector Army In Star Wars. That is how small star wars crops are in comparison to the reality of space warfare. That is a massive amount of firepower for Star Wars but nothing for Warhammer 40k.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Yes, the conversions make sense if you take the cannon or legends numbers an Imperial Guard Regiment is about The Size of a singular Oversector Army or an Other Such Unit. It makes sense given the overscale of war in the Warhammer universes compared to Star Wars in which a corps is about a Division in size and Imperial Guard Division would be multiple regional armies or theater armies in today’s terms.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago

In Warhammer there can crack open entire planets level cities the size of the biggest volcano in the solar system in a few shots. And more if anything thier are likely far bigger than one given the sheer scale in the 40k universe. Units thier are at least 3-4 steps above what would consider such a unit.The Tyranids mini hive fleets could consist of dozens to hundreds of planetary biomass at once it is massive once you think about it.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

First, an over sector I Wars a few solar systems not the hundreds of millions of solar systems like it would be in real life. Second, a Corps is about Divisoned size in star wars anyway. Second, we have examples in the old EU of over sector armies in the hundreds of thousands to few millions of personal. The Complete Guide to Warfare calms such numbers. And Yes an Imperial Guide Regiments can vary greatly in overall size. But Star Wars Units are a number down from thier real-life examples.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 months ago

1) An Oversector is composed of dozens or hundreds of sectors, not worlds. It is the next organizational step above – or over – a sector, hence the title Oversector.

2) A Corps in the SWU is composed of four Battlegroups, which are the post-Republic designation for a Division-sized unit.

3) A Sector Army is the organizational heading for all Army forces assigned to a sector. As such, the number of units assigned to it will vary greatly due to the requirements and importance of said sector.

4) A Regiment in the SWU is nominally around 4,000-5,000 troops, plus auxiliary attachments, roughly the same as in most real-world armies.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Thank you for that information

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 months ago

So what? “[insert fictional army here] is bigger” has no bearing on the subject at hand.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

You are right it does not. But it is important to an overall scale of what you are trying to talk about in the long term.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Your Website your rules you own it thier for I have to abide by the rules you give every single time even if I disagree with I have to do it the right way all of the time and nor just most of the time.

Patrick
Patrick
2 months ago

So, the whole Corps fits into one Consolidator? Man, that ship is WAY bigger than I thought it was…

Question: Can anyone explain the “repulsorlift vehicles have to wait because shields” thing to me? I guess I’m not as well-versed in the lore as I thought I was, lol.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 months ago
Reply to  Patrick

Here’s the quote from the AT-TE entry in the Incredible Cross Section books (pg. 83 in the Complete Vehicles compilation):

INCISIVE VANGUARD
AT-TEs are effective at penetrating shields. Walker movement uses simple traction, whereas high-velocity exhausts that dirve a speeder or starship are stifled by particle shields. Furthermore, flying craft can be damaged by energy discharges leaping from the ground at shield interfaces, but a walker’s natural grounding provides invulnerability against this effect. AT-TEs are also well shielded against electromagnetic pulse weapons and ion cannon fire.

Patrick
Patrick
2 months ago
Reply to  Patrick

, this is an amazing level of depth and thought here, and your artistry is astounding. If you’re taking recommendations or ideas for new projects, I would love to see your take on the SPHA mentioned here, in a proper 60m scale, instead of Wookiepedias ridiculous unsupported 140m number, as well as a take on their Theta-Barges.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Patrick

If the SPHASs is 140 meters long and the gun ads 35 meters. The assault ships would have to be 1,750 meters long. If we go by the 35 meters long the ICS suggests they are. The Republic Assault Ships are massive the 4.5 kilometers long. If they are 175 meters in length. That would be at least 216 times the overall weight of the starship.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

IU was my fault was the reason the Body Of The SPHA is 140 meters plus another 35 meters for the cannon itself. Then the Republic Assault Ship with some space would have to be 216 times more massive and therefore 6 times longer wider taller in every direction in space-time and reality to make sense of those numbers given. Like how in Disney canon thier 1,200-1,600 meters long so multiple that by 3.75 times to account for the fact Mon Cal Warships are no uniform in pretty much anything. it would be 4,500 meters to 6,750 meters. And the fact Certain MC series warship dwarf the falcon when it’s directly flying over the head of them.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago

I think My numbers are off a little be. It would be if the cannon lengths are 1,200-1,600 meters depending on the starship the real lengths would be 4,500-6,000 meters long depending on if the falcon is the biggest ship it can reasonably carry. It would still be far larger than it is directing in cannon lore for the most part.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I am assuming the MC 80 can take ships bigger than the falcon. I am assuming that the 140 meters length for the SPHA is for the main body and not the body plus the cannon itself. So I added 35 meters or 1 fourth of 140 to make things simply easier. But I made things harder for you. So I figure with a little bit of space added the Transports for them would have to be 6 times longer wider and taller to give them enough space.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 months ago

No. Republic Assault Ships are only 752 meters long. Where are you getting 4.5 kilometers from? Do you even proofread your comments before you hit the Post button, because none of this makes sense.

Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
Resurgent Class Battlecruiser
2 months ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

You are right it does not and sometimes I do. I have seen number around 890 meters for the exact same starship in the animated clone wars incredible cross selections book, If The SPHA is 35 meters either length you or I sated makes

LazerZ
LazerZ
9 months ago

I wonder if SPMAs would have the same organization as SPHAs. I rather like the idea of smaller, nimbler versions of the SPHA, but I’m certain they would be weaker than their larger counterparts whatever Petroglyph says. To say nothing of indirect fire using turbolasers…

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago

200 in. One month wow

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

The TIE/sk’s from Rogue One ended up being atmosphere-only platforms (which is a convenient explanation for why they didn’t show up in any of the space battles in the OT). Would they be the equivalent of attack helos like the Apache / Havoc?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Efficiency doesn’t seem to particularly matter in the SWU. How many other things seem to exist primarily to satisfy the Rule of Cool, then leave fans struggling to ret-con a sense of verisimilitude to the concept?

Steve Bannon
Steve Bannon
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

There are already a dozen varieties of Imperial gunship to fit your Red Imperial Mi-24 org chart slot. The TIE/SK is definitely a fighter, and probably the best damn Imperial fighter from the films if we rank them by their kill/loss ratios against X-Wings piloted by named characters.

Where the SK comes from, and why it never turns up again is more of a mystery. Perhaps it was an effort by the Army to attach fighters to land units without the Navy demanding complete control in some ludicrous Imperial Japanese-esque escalation of the inter-service rivalry.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Steve Bannon

Fractal’s LAAV is a much better fit for an Mi-24 equivalent. I see this more along the lines of a straight attack or mixed attack/scout/superiority, ala the Ka-50. Per WEG, the Imperial Army and Navy seemed to have their own different branches of TIE groups, much like WW2-era Army and Navy, so a dedicated atmospheric combat variant that sacrifices deep space flight capability for atmospheric performance might be something fielded solely by the Imperial Army.

Steve Bannon
Steve Bannon
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

For your Ka-50 analogue, you’d probably want a high-endurance airframe with plenty of ordnance tubes, and a gimbal-mounted gun instead of forward facing lasers only. The SK is too damn good of a dogfighter (RIP Blue Leader) to be optimized for the scout gunship role, although the fluff says it has proton bomb chutes and room in the back for cargo/passengers. If anything, that suggests a parallel to a De Havilland DH.98 Mosquito as a multi-role heavy fighter/light bomber that manages to find a do-everything niche as a result of an absurdly good engine compared to its contemporaries.

I was aware that the Army was allowed to have TIE Ground Support Wings in the old WEG material, but those wings were artificially limited by politics to 40 craft. Perhaps the Striker was an attempt to have a fighter that could be formed into more tactically flexible units with less Navy interference.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Steve Bannon

It’s never clarified in the WEG material why Army TIE wings are limited to 40 craft, merely that they are. The formation of Army Ground Support TIE Wings is cited as the result of a political battle between the Navy (who wanted control of all the TIEs) and the Army (who wanted their own dedicated ground support). The fact that TIE Ground Support Wings exist at all strongly indicates who won that fight.

While I do like the organizational and combat doctrine of the Red Army as a basis on which to design a better system, there are going to be some things that have no clear analogy, including atmospheric combat craft like the TIE/sk. I picked the Ka-50 because my understanding was that the Ka-50 was designed as a dedicated air-intercept helicopter, with the mission of hunting down NATO attack helos at low levels. Reading up on the -50 for this conversation, it turns out that this was never its mission; the Soviets intended as a light scout/attack helo, ala the RAH-66 Comanche. Ultimately, it mostly ends up looking like a fighter-bomber restricted to atmospheric operations, with the low-orbit capability for deployment from and recovery aboard transports.

keb
keb
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I found an article with some pictures from the Rogue One exhibit at Star Wars Celebration Europe. One picture shows the TIE Striker placard which says that it operated in both atmosphere and space.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-is-adding-some-gorgeous-new-ships-for-rogue-o-1783721583

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  keb

And yet, the Rogue One Visual Encyclopedia specifically states that it can only go into low orbit for limited periods. Gotta love DisneyLucas’ amazing internal consistency.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

And the FFG content I’ve noticed mentions this thing being used in both, complete with card art depicting Striker formations well away from orbit. Suppose the VE would ‘outrank’ that, but talk about failures to communicate.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

A couple possibilities…

1). Ships in space are likely operating at much higher velocities than they do in atmosphere, and thus require more robust engines to operate at combat speeds in both environments. A ship designed specifically to operate in atmosphere (or at most up to low orbit) could be equipped with an engine more narrowly engineered for less varied operational environments, with any savings in volume (and power-to-mass ratios) being directed into added thrust in-atmosphere and/or more capable maneuvering systems that allow it to operate at higher speeds while still maintaining control.

2). Theoretically, ships capable of operating in deep space would need heavier shielding to protect from radiation outside of a planet’s Van Allen belts. A ship designed to operate in atmosphere up to low orbit could conceivably forego such shielding and save mass/energy for other uses.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Or 3) Engines involving gravity well like the geonosian Starfighter and its use of tractor beams

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

What’s your reference for this? The engine system described in the NEGVV (per Wikipedia) seems based around some sort of particle thrust from a reactor (whether ion or fusion). There’s no mention of a gravity-only system apart from (presumably) the standard repulsorlift system found on pretty much every aerospace craft in the SWU

EDIT: Never mind, found it. But the tractor beam system in question seems to be used primarily for aiming purposes…

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I was under the impression that it was to aid and assist in maneuverability on both cases.
And the source for any other people that have questions about it would be the Rogue One incredible cross-sections

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Rogue One never had an Incredible Cross-Sections book; all the cross-sections were folded into the Rogue One Visual Dictionary. This includes the cross-section for the TIE/sk. The cross-section for the Geonosian fighter would be either the AOTC Cross-Section book or Complete Vehicles.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Edit The visual dictionary Rogue one was the other one.
Edit again just saw your reply =D

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Depends on the nature of the drive. In the SWU, a fusion or ion drive system might be able to make use of an air-scoop system to feed atmospheric gases into a fusion torus or some other form of reactor to generate thrust, which would either greatly reduce or eliminate (unlikely, but remotely possible) the need for an onboard fuel supply. A ship in deep space would have to depend on internal fuel supplies instead.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Again, it depends on the drive. X-Wings, for example, are fitted with fusial thrust engines, not ion drives. It’s not really clear what “fusial” is, but a fusion drive is a likely candidate. Right now, natural fusion (stars) and experimental fusion reactors run off hydrogen or hydrogen isotopes, but theoretically, if technology is advanced enough, any relatively light molecule (i.e. most atmospheric gases) could be run through a fusion reactor.

TIEs wouldn’t be able to operate on the same system, but a fission system of some type that could split atmospheric gases to produce ionized particles for the drive might be feasible.

Also noteworthy is that most airspeeders have some form of air intake; even the Hoth Snowspeeder has a scoop recessed into the underside.

I guess the real question is how far one is willing to push SWU tech.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Authentic models of the snowspeeder’s underside are hard to come by, but this one shows what appears to be a scoop in two different ventral views.

http://www.thx-trailer.com/replica/starwars10.htm

Yeah, it’s flimsy, but there has to be /some/ reason or advantage as to why atmospheric-only craft exist alongside deep-space capable fighters and shuttles.

TheIcthala
TheIcthala
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

A comparison of the prices stated for the TIE/sk (50,000 credits – Dawn of Rebellion) and the TIE/ln (60,000 credits – Inside the Empire’s Winged Menace [The book part of the TIE Fighter Deluxe Book and Model Set]) supports the argument that reducing cost for planetary garrisons was a factor in the Striker’s development.
How they managed to get it to cost less than TIE/ln I don’t know. All I can really think is that the more streamlined shape and atmosphere only mission allowed them to get away with using cheaper, less powerful engines than TIE/ln while still getting better performance in enough atmospheres to be worth it.
I agree that there’s no evidence for TIE/sk’s power system being designed to interact specifically with an atmosphere, and that such a design doesn’t make much sense with SW tech.
As for CRMcNeill’s point about intakes on T-47s, the inference I take from that intake’s positioning is that it feeds air to the radiator on the speeder’s back, not to any reactor.
All we really know about TIE/sk’s numbers is that they’re not shown to be present at any of the OT ground battles (and why would they be? The situations aren’t ones where air support can be practically deployed/would help the Empire), but they’re still around for the Battle of Jakku (Aftermath: Empire’s End).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  TheIcthala

But radiators are heavily dependent on air volume, as well. It doesn’t matter how efficient a heat dissipation system is, breathable air can only absorb so much heat by volume, and the size of that intake is miniscule compared to the size of the vents on the back.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

This is actually addressed both in ESB and the EU with the “having some trouble adapting them to the cold” line. Per the EU, the heat sink / dissipator vanes on the back of the snowspeeder were actually too good at their job in a frigid environment like Hoth, and had to be fitted with insulating sleeves.

And I’d be willing to bet that hostile environments like Venus are not going to be the norm for open-field battles. Not that it would never happen, but that it would be rare, and that such environments would require special vehicles either designed or modified to meet the environmental requirements.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Random Thought: Are neutrino radiators universal, or only installed on shielded craft? I’m wondering if perhaps neutrino radiators are bulky / expensive, and are primarily used because they can still function underneath a shield. Lighter, less expensive craft (like airspeeders) that don’t mount shields might make use of other, more economical heat dispersion methods.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

A lot of the reasoning behind it is based in an effort to retcon gaming stats. In the WEG rules, for instance, a lot of atmosphere-only craft drastically outperform even the fastest starfighters. The game stats for the Storm IV Cloud Car from ESB, for example, give it the edge in maneuverability, acceleration and max-speed advantage over an A-Wing in atmosphere, but no ability to go above low orbit. The theory generally arrived upon in discussion was that some combination of technology allowed airspeeders and cloud cars to achieve superior performance in atmosphere by sacrificing all but the most basic of space-flight capability.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Given how often such rules were basically for the sake of player ergonomics, I find myself reluctant to accept sourcebook fiat for something this odd (be it 90s EU or Disneyboot haphazardry) unless absolutely necessary. I mean, what makes cloud cars any more aerodynamic (economic, sure) than alphabet fighters? Does bare-bones life support really give you that much more room for substantial powerplant optimization? Is atmospheric friction a major performance-limiting risk factor for fighter-scale craft? Why are X-wings supposedly slower than a frickin’ MiG-19?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  gorkmalork

There’s an argument to be made that small craft maneuverability in the SWU has less to do with actual aerodynamics than it has to do with the functioning of whatever “lateral controls” and “etheric rudders” are. If it’s a powered field system that manipulates a craft’s kinetic energy, or somehow bends a straight-line course (which it would pretty much have to to explain the space combat seen in the films), then the craft’s power budget would be the main limiter on maneuverability. The more power that can be diverted to the lateral controls, the more force can be exerted on the craft’s mass when altering said course. It helps explain why flying bricks like the Millennium Falcon can appear to be so quick to maneuver, when from an aerodynamic standpoint, they should just drop like a rock.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Controls/rudders & maneuvering jets make sense for vacuum, though I’d imagine designs with less wind resistance need to shunt less juice toward said systems in atmo. Plus, there’s the sorta brainbuggy bit on X-wing books where TIE wing panels curse them with persistent maneuvering issues near dirtside (can’t say I’ve seen any sign of this in Disneyboot material, though). I could see the Striker being *streamlined* for atmo ops with those pointy forward-facing VG wings, but optimizing systems for that *exclusive* environment (plus the ordnance rack & extra seat) seems distinctly counter-productive if you’re trying to make it *cheaper* than the /ln. Then again, mmmmaybe the second hamsterhelmet & extra firepower cut into fuel capacity something fierce.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Reading up on its design and role reminds me more like a OV-10

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

A Skywalker in the cockpit makes for an outlier data point.

gorkmalork
gorkmalork
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Don’t you mean *Force-sensitive* Big Name vs. non-forcemonkey Medium Names? Plus, the R1 kills weren’t stuck on linear trench runs.

Oh, and WRT retcon-rationalizing inconsistent Disneyboot tech statements, I see no reason not to ditch that ‘atmo-exclusive’ BS & the proton-bomb chutes & refurbish Strikers as, say, Starwing/bomber escorts (or cheaper substitutes for same) with a couple dozen torps or CMs.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

How much detail do you want to get into about the organization of different corps types, and any supporting auxiliaries?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Do you think walkers have a place in every corps, or would there be operational circumstances where they aren’t appropriate? As I understand it, their main utility in maneuver warfare is better stability in rough terrain (although the mechanics of that have always been rather vague) and the ability to penetrate full-coverage Gungan-type shields. On a planet lacking either of those conditions, the relative sluggishness of walkers would seem to be an impediment.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I think I got side-tracked into defending my project instead of discussing yours. Of necessity, a rewrite of the Organization chapter in the ImpSB will need more a more in-depth treatment of what and why an army behaves the way it does than a simple discription of how it’s organized. If you prefer, I’ll stop talking about it.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Yeah, it’s probably for the better that we stop at this point. Hope you at least saw the images I posted and see what I was referring to, anyways (and if it comes out after this post, that’s only because of the Awaiting Moderation tag taking that long). And yeah, we probably do need an update (preferably for the Legends continuity). Probably the closest we’re ever going to get to in-depth treatment of the army in terms of what and why it behaves that way is in the Imperial Handbook: A Commander’s Guide.

To get it back on track, the organizational details of the Army by Fractal definitely looks pretty awesome there. I wonder if he plans on doing something similar with the Navy as well.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

1) Well, the novelization certainly seemed to claim “unit” indicated a single clone at least. But yeah, there’s a bit of that (and quite frankly, it was a miracle that the Republic even LASTED as long with that small amount of forces considering all of that).

2) Maybe so, but then again, America during the Vietnam War technically was closer to divisional/regimental organization rather than brigades. I personally would have preferred the American comparison since, let’s face it, that’s what Lucas based it on per his own development notes (even though I utterly hated Lucas’s comparison, especially that such was made in the actual development notes, it’s still Word of God and thus still canon). And I do agree regarding ideology, anyways (it’s pretty clear that the Empire even at its worst is nothing like the Red Army in terms of ideology. And besides, as indicated by the French Revolution, brigades as smallest independent formations =/= actual good guys ideologically.). We really should have settled with “divisional/regimental” instead of Red Army/NATO, especially when, like I said, America also was closer to the divisional/regimental model.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

What’s your take on WEG’s statement that the Evakmar-KDY was designed to carry more than a full corps, in anticipation of plans to expand unit sizes in the Imperial Army? Is there any extra room on the Consolidator to reflect this, or is it packed as tight as it can get?

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well it depends on the corps in question. A lighter, repulsorlift formation for garrison work is going to take up a lot less room than the breakthrough walker formation with all the AT-SPs diagrammed above.

STONEhenk
STONEhenk
2 years ago

Light Walker
platoon – 3 AT-ST or -DP +1
company – 16 + 1
battalion – 3 company, 1 command platoon, 3 AT-ACT + 15 AT-SW support element
Total battalion: (52 AT-ST) + 15 AT-SW + 3 AT-ACT

3×17 + 4 = 52??? Or is the “+ 1” of the company part of the command platoon?

And you forget to add the extra 15 AT-SWs in the Light Walker battalion to the Combat Walker regiment. So there are even more Zeta? Zeta’s? Zetari? needed to droo the AT-SWs in a single drop. Or maybe in a Chi with some space free.

I also want to know how the Airmobile units are done. Are the HQ’s also LAAVs? And the company battalion troops include the broadswords like the repulsorlift units do? Are the LAAVs infantry transport only or do they include LAAT/c’s for vehicle transport? Or Zetari?(plural form of Zeta).

STONEhenk
STONEhenk
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

The (small and not really problematic) error in the walker regiments is that they have 2 AT-AT/AT-SE battalions (15 AT-ST each), a light walker battalion(52 AT-ST and 15 AT-SW) and a combat walker battalion (15 AT-ST and 52 AT-SW). So there are 30 more Zetas needed, because the AT-ST battalions also have 15 AT-SW each for support.

And I found this pic of the engineering variant of the AT-AT:comment image

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

On the updated image, it looks like the Scythe artillery variants are the wrong color; the size is right, but the color is the same as the Broadsword

Ryadra777
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I think the blue colour on the A7 and A10 are artillery variants

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

A couple thoughts on specialist formations from the sourcebook…

Assault Battalions & Regiments could, with some minor tweaks, be used to make AT-AT formations, with AT-ATs in the “Heavy Tanks” slots providing transport to the unit’s infantry. The description at both the Battalion and Regimental level describes them as being used for direct assault on enemy strongholds, as well as being the vanguard for combat landings.

The organization of Bike Scout units at the Platoon level is pretty screwed up, with two 5-scout lances on bikes and 2 line squads of troops with no listed transportation of any kind. In some units, the entire unit would be vehicle-mobile except for those two squads. A couple options I came up with were 1). Replace the two line squads with 1 squad of Sharpshooters (operating in a Marksman / Observer role) and 1 section of two light recon vehicles (possibly the Imperial Troop Transport toy Kenner put out that never made it into the films) that would also provide transport for the sharpshooters and a degree of heavy weapons support, or 2) put the Line Infantry on repulsor-platforms, ala the hover-skimmers used by infantry in Hammer’s Slammers. The various options could then be mixed and matched as needed.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Yeah, the ITT is far from the best design; I was picturing more of a vehicle in the Chariot size-range with obvious visual similarity to the ITT, but with an enclosed troop compartment in the back. Basically an homage to the ITT while disposing of its more ridiculous aspects.

As far as borderline AFV’s, one vehicle that springs to mind is the ULAV from the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. The ImpSB does also specifically mention that bike scout units may be equipped with two-man vehicles instead of bikes.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

So you’ve already gotten a T-80 in the Scythe, a BMP-2 in the Broadsword, and now you’re looking to flesh out the BTR-80 and BRDM-2 slots for your Red Imperial org chart? Fair enough, although I’ve always preferred NATO structures.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Doctrinally, though, the Red Army is a better choice. Any armed force is going to be a reflection of the values of its government, and the Empire is clearly more invested in strong control from the top down than they are in fielding the most flexible and efficient force possible. For instance, there is no place in the NATO structure for CompForce Observation units (the SWU equivalents of Soviet-style commissars and political officers), but that position is already built into the Soviet TO&E

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

While the stormtroopers probably see quite a bit of action seizing rebellious worlds, the vast majority of the Imperial Army is employed in a strategic defensive posture rather than in preparation for attack, with the expectation of support from a massive interstellar logistics chain and air superiority, which seems a lot more NATO than Soviet.

There’s also no contradiction between despicable totalitarianism and a flexible military structure, as the Wehrmacht Kampfgruppes and their Auftragstaktik demonstrate. Slapping Compforce observers onto NATO org charts is trivial, although Compforce Assault sounds more Waffen SS than NKVD division.

Besides, Imperials are Englishmen dressing up as Germans, and their vehicles are huge and blocky instead of compact and curvy. It just seems more natural.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Stormtroopers are likely more a combination of Marines and Airborne; rapid reaction assault troops who are used for limited ground strikes or kick-in-the-door operations to take and hold spaceports and other objectives so that the Army can more easily deploy follow-on heavy forces who will do the fighting across the bulk of the planet’s surface. In addition, they’ll also be deployed to guard important facilities (ala US Marines guarding embassies and nuclear weapons depots), with a definite hint of Republican Guard (insuring the loyalty of regular military). Stormtroopers might be an important component of any garrison or occupation force, but the bulk of the military might will most likely be regular Army.

A major component of tactical and operational flexibility involves giving commanders at all levels a high degree of independence, allowing them to react to a changing combat situation of their own volition as opposed to kicking the can up to their superiors and waiting for a response. The sort of flexibility you suggest would likely only be tolerated in certain groups of proven loyalty, not as a general rule. If the ImpSB is to be believed, it’s likely the regular Army attempted to have its cake and eat it too by giving individual commanders the authority to act independently within the confines of official doctrine (then harshly punishing any deviation from doctrine, up to the point of executing particularly egregious violators even if their method was subsequently evaluated and incorporated into doctrine). However, strict adherence to doctrine results in predictability, which makes it a lot easier for an opposing commander to predict how the Imperial Army will respond in a given situation. Of course, the Imperial Army is large enough that it will always be able to generate enough momentum of force to overcome any resistance by throwing enough warm bodies at it, but again, that’s more of a Warsaw Pact mindset than a NATO one.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Yeah, about that… I’m pretty sure the basis for the Red Army is more found in the Rebel Alliance than in the Galactic Empire (certainly, the Rebels were based on the Vietcong per George Lucas’s own admission in both The Making of Star Wars and also James Cameron’s History of Sci Fi series, and based on Lucas’s fondness for the Soviet filming system over the Hollywood system which he made clear in that interview with Charlie Rose, I wouldn’t even be surprised if he loved the Soviet model as well.), while the Empire if anything is based on the leftist view of the American military where they saw them as no different from the Nazis in World War II (despite the fact that there was a whole world of difference, and if anything the Hippie movement came far closer to matching the Nazis).

Besides, the Empire gave more legroom for the Corporate Sector Authority by expanding their territories by 30,000 systems and let them have free reign in their territory asking only for a yearly tax in return, which is definitely not something the Red Army would have even remotely tolerated. And I certainly doubt the Red Army would have even remotely tolerated the mere existence of immunity spheres either, which the Empire actually allowed for.

Plus, to be fair, the Red Army’s role models, the Robespierre Grand Army of the French Republic during the French Revolution, didn’t exactly have Observation units, either (though that was mostly because the guys there were so bloodthirsty they’d kill anyone they could find, regardless of loyalty, solely for a sheer kick. I believe Louis Grignon’s exact words during Vendee to his troops were, and I quote, “My comrades, we enter the insurgent country, I give you the express order to deliver to the flames all that will be likely to be burned and to pass over the bayonet all that you meet of inhabitants on your way. I know there may be some patriots in this country; it is the same, we must sacrifice everything”. And believe it or not, the French Revolutionaries were also the basis for the Old Republic in the Prequel Trilogy if Lucas is to be believed at Cannes 2005 film festival.), yet I don’t think anyone would call the French Revolutionaries the good guys.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

You’re mistaking political doctrine for tactics. It’s also a mistake to assume that meta-universe filming preferences will dictate in-universe military doctrine. Irregular forces like the Viet Cong are limited to guerilla tactics precisely because they lack the combat power to confront their enemy one-on-one, not because those are the tactics used by all regimes of a given political doctrine.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Maybe so, but considering Lucas actually compared the Old Republic to Robespierre’s France in a more positive light (well, positive compared to either King Louis XVI’s France or Napoleonic France, anyway), I’m pretty sure that Lucas did indeed have their political doctrine in mind in addition to tactics (the 1973 development notes, for example, explicitly compared Aquillae to the North Vietnamese Army and the Vietcong in a positive manner, and I know that Lucas confirmed he was indeed fully aware the Vietcong were an actual terrorist group in tactics and ideology at the time he made the movies when James Cameron asked if he knew this. Plus, if that Skywalking book is of any indication, he actually quoted Karl Marx’s dictum about workers having the means of production when talking about the failure of the Hollywood system.). I can tell you this much, when the French Revolutionaries came into power, they didn’t even NEED to continue utilizing guerilla tactics to run things, yet still did even the basest form of guerilla tactics solely to inflict terror in the populace, or even just for a sheer laugh in most cases.

And besides, let me point out that the American Minutemen were Irregular forces as well, yet they deliberately avoided incurring civilian casualties or committing abhorrent war crimes, while the same can’t be said for the Vietcong who did deliberately do that (heck, the latter even got MEDALS for their atrocities), not even being willing to outright assassinate King George III despite having plenty of opportunities to do that (and BTW, the rebels DID try to assassinate the Emperor, including during Return of the Jedi, and if Children of the Jedi is of any indication, they went all “September Massacres” on the Imperial Palace staff.). And just as an FYI, the Soviets under Lenin and the Khmer Rouge when taking power in the USSR and Cambodia, respectively, heck, the Jacobins in France even after taking power, STILL engaged in those tactics, so yes, it actually does match the tactics used by all regimes of a political doctrine.

And if we’re going to go strictly by tactics and not by political ideologies, let me remind you that Daine Jir in the beginning of A New Hope actually talked back to Vader, his superior officer, for his decision to arrest Leia and wasn’t strangled or even dressed down for it, showing that even the Imperial Military still allowed for some independent thinking and thus criticizing commanding officers within reason (let me put it this way, had it not allowed for it, Jir would have been dead while Vader ranted like a lunatic at him talking back to him, sort of like how Geldoblame behaved towards Lyude regarding the Azha massacre in Baten Kaitos here [and bear in mind, as Lyude was formerly an Alfard soldier, that technically meant he talked back to his commanding officer]: https://youtu.be/xtO-AHuEhJc?t=368 ). I can tell you this much, what Jir did certainly would not have been even slightly tolerated in the Red Army, basically supplying him with a one way ticket to the Gulags if he’s especially lucky, and would actually end up killed or worse usually.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

This is classic False Analogy. You’re essentially arguing that Lucas’ offhand remarks as to the archetypes he based the Rebellion on necessitates that the Rebellion will conform to that archetype in all particulars, not just some of them. Guerilla warfare does not require that either side must avoid civilian casualties; that’s a political choice made by the combatants, not a strategic requirement.

Yes, the Empire bears some resemblance to Nazi Germany, as well; the presence of “immunity spheres” very closely resembles Hitler’s actual relationships with various large corporations, in which they had general autonomy contingent on loyalty and service to the Reich. I even poached aspects of the SS to expand the COMPNOR chapter, but I agree with Fractal that the Soviet model is the best historical match from a doctrinal and equipment standpoint.

And Daine Jir is not an accurate sample of the Imperial military officer corps; he’s a relatively high-ranking officer in Vader’s personal stormtrooper regiment. We have no idea what sort of working relationship he may or may not have with Vader that permits him to take that sort of liberty with him that no other officer would dream of.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Actually, not even offhand. His 1973 development notes, as well as comments dating to around that time that are found in The Making of Star Wars, made it very clear he based the Rebels on the Vietcong and the Empire on America (and mentioned similar inspirations regarding the Ewoks in the director’s commentary for Return of the Jedi), specifically to push an anti-war message. And if that’s not enough, his associate Walter Murch, gave a similar story in his filming textbook The Conversations. Heck, Chris Taylor, the guy who wrote How Star Wars Conquered the Universe, emphasized that fact. And unless I’m mistaken, the canon sourcebook Star Wars and History specifically cited Mao Zedong’s “people’s revolutions” as the inspiration of the Rebels. Besides, with Lucas, even off-hand remarks are treated as canon information under his company’s policy while he was still running it. Just look at how they literally made Obi-Wan’s homeworld Stewjon instead of Coruscant simply because Lucas made a joke on the Jon Stewart show relating to his homeworld, for example (and that definitely was off-hand in that case). And I wouldn’t be so sure about political choices: The Vendee resistance also came close at times to engaging in slaughtering POWs, with only Christianity stopping them from doing that.

As far as the Empire, it only really bears resemblance in terms of the uniforms (and even that bore more of a resemblance to WWI-era Germany). It actually has quite a bit of differences there, like for example the whole Immunity Spheres thing (not even the Nazis embraced that bit. According to the Mises institute as well as Albert Speer’s memoirs, that whole thing about autonomy of corporations was actually an illusion, and that they install party plants to basically manage things even when they have absolutely no clue about certain stuff regarding the industry. Similar to how the USSR has the Communist Party being in charge of industry in fact, only more indirect. You can read more here: http://mises.org/daily/47; also this: http://www.lksamuels.com/?cat=4 Actually, if anything, what the Nazis did was closer to the relationship between the Trade Federation and the Galactic Republic prior to the former cutting it for themselves.).

In Legends, at least, part of the reason Vader even promoted him at all is precisely BECAUSE Jir didn’t act like a yes-man, and was perfectly willing to give blunt honesty, so it’s extremely unlikely the Empire would have not tolerated disagreements in its ranks. Besides, in Baten Kaitos, that flashback I showed you indicated that Lyude at that time was also pretty high up in the ranks (since he had personally been present when Geldoblame gave that order to his top officials in the army), probably closer to Jir’s rank, or, heck, even Vader’s, yet… well, let’s just say Geldoblame wasn’t NEARLY as tolerant of Lyude’s blunt honesty as Vader was to Jir. Heck, the only reason Geldoblame didn’t have Lyude executed for speaking out against the massacre at all was because the Alfard Honor would never have agreed with the execution (and if anything, were it not for that, he would have had him executed instead of merely making him an ambassador and reassigned him to Antarctica so to speak). Heck, forget Geldoblame, I can tell you that Stalin definitely would have the same thing to Jir, regardless of his rank standing, and I think Hitler if that BBC documentary about the Nazis would have done the exact same thing as well (he fired some economists when they gave answers he didn’t want to hear.), or heck, have Jir executed for any mercurial reasons. Stalin actually had Grigory Zhukov demoted simply because the latter proved instrumental to winning World War II, not to mention had his own son demoted and shuffled away simply because he got captured by the enemy. It’s a good bet if Jir tried to be bluntly honest with Stalin, he’d be sent to the gulags or even sent to the shooting squads.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Actually, not even offhand. His 1973 development notes, as well as comments dating to around that time that are found in The Making of Star Wars, made it very clear he based the Rebels on the Vietcong and the Empire on America (and mentioned similar inspirations regarding the Ewoks in the director’s commentary for Return of the Jedi), specifically to push an anti-war/pro-Vietcong message. And if that’s not enough, his associate Walter Murch, gave a similar story in his filming textbook The Conversations. Heck, Chris Taylor, the guy who wrote How Star Wars Conquered the Universe, emphasized that fact. And unless I’m mistaken, the canon (well, Legends-canon anyways) sourcebook Star Wars and History specifically cited Mao Zedong’s “people’s revolutions” as the inspiration of the Rebels. Besides, with Lucas, even off-hand remarks are treated as canon information under his company’s policy while he was still running it. Just look at how they literally made Obi-Wan’s homeworld Stewjon instead of Coruscant simply because Lucas made a joke on the Jon Stewart show relating to his homeworld, for example (and that definitely was off-hand in that case). And I wouldn’t be so sure about political choices: The Vendee resistance also came close at times to engaging in slaughtering POWs, with only their adherence to Christianity stopping them from doing that, and make no mistake, those guys were right-wing.

As far as the Empire, it only really bears resemblance in terms of the uniforms (and even that bore more of a resemblance to WWI-era Germany). It actually has quite a bit of differences there, like for example the whole Immunity Spheres thing (not even the Nazis embraced that bit. According to the Mises institute as well as Albert Speer’s memoirs, that whole thing about autonomy of corporations was actually an illusion, and that they install party plants to basically manage things even when they have absolutely no clue about certain stuff regarding the industry. Similar to how the USSR has the Communist Party being in charge of industry in fact, only more indirect. You can read more here: http://mises.org/daily/47; also this: http://www.lksamuels.com/?cat=4 Actually, if anything, what the Nazis did was closer to the relationship between the Trade Federation and the Galactic Republic prior to the former cutting it for themselves.). As far as equipment and doctrine, I’d say it’s probably closer to Nixon’s “Peace through Honor” and Reagan’s “Peace through Strength”, to be honest.

In Legends, at least, part of the reason Vader even promoted him at all is precisely BECAUSE Jir didn’t act like a yes-man, and was perfectly willing to give blunt honesty, so it’s extremely unlikely the Empire would have not tolerated disagreements in its ranks. Besides, in Baten Kaitos, that flashback I showed you indicated that Lyude at that time was also pretty high up in the ranks (since he had personally been present when Geldoblame gave that order to his top officials in the army), probably closer to Jir’s rank, or, heck, even Vader’s, yet… well, let’s just say Geldoblame wasn’t NEARLY as tolerant of Lyude’s blunt honesty as Vader was to Jir. Heck, the only reason Geldoblame didn’t have Lyude executed for speaking out against the massacre at all was because the Alfard Honor would never have agreed with the execution (and if anything, were it not for that, he would have had him executed instead of merely making him an ambassador and reassigned him to Antarctica so to speak). Heck, forget Geldoblame, I can tell you that Stalin definitely would have the same thing to Jir, regardless of his rank standing, and I think Hitler if that BBC documentary about the Nazis would have done the exact same thing as well (he fired some economists when they gave answers he didn’t want to hear.), or heck, have Jir executed for any mercurial reasons. Stalin actually had Grigory Zhukov demoted simply because the latter proved instrumental to winning World War II, not to mention had his own son demoted and shuffled away simply because he got captured by the enemy. It’s a good bet if Jir tried to be bluntly honest with Stalin, he’d be sent to the gulags or even sent to the shooting squads.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Still related to Star Wars military doctrine especially given Lucas’s explicit real life comparisons in even development notes for the film. Still, I’ll try to stop after this.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

I’d say politically, you are accurate regarding internal politics in the Imperial Army and Navy, but tactical doctrine =/= internal politics. Palpatine clearly ruled in part through controlling subordinates through rivalry for Imperial favor, a part of this is encoraging diverse opinion, while rewarding success and punishing failure. Stalin punished success, and punished failure, and anything other than personal loyalty to Stalin, the man was a psychopath and a paranoid. He allowed Generals to do their job for the most part, but considered any successful general a rival. Hitler surrounded himself with Yes men, and was politically brilliant in the milieu of his era, but an idiot in regards to military strategy, who considered himself a genius, and punished those who disagreed with his military opinions.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

In regards to doctrine, we only have the movies for real evidence, and they resemble the classic Red Army in bringing overwhelming firepower on any target. I suspect they reenforce success on a front, while allowing failure to starve for reenforcements. Mimban in the movie Solo underscores the classic Red Army, with scenes of officers, full of zeal for the New Order ordering, and personally leading hopeless frontal assaults. All they are missing are trucks with ISB troops loaded with e-webs following the assault, to shoot any slackers.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

I agree, not everything is going to match perfectly with historical authoritarian governments and militaries. However, one is far more likely to find parallels there than in the governments and militaries of western democracies.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

I suppose I should clarify that the equivalence here is not the origins of the Red Army, but rather, how it was at its zenith in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s when there were serious concerns whether NATO could stop an all-out conventional attack by the Red Army into Western Europe.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

As Fractalsponge said, it’s barely all that different between the two. And besides, Lucas if anything made it pretty clear he if anything thought of American forces in Vietnam when he made the Empire (even said as much in his 1973 development notes). And besides, the French Revolutionaries, even when they took power (especially during Vendee), didn’t adhere to a top-down approach or loyalty oaths in their armed forces (actually if anything, they adhered more to how the Joker from Batman ran things in his criminal organization, or how Ridley ran things in the Space Pirates in the Metroid manga). If anything, the Separatists came closer to the Red Army in the late 1970s’/early 1980s’ especially regarding serious concerns of whether the Grand Army of the Republic could even stop an all-out conventional attack by them.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

I think this has gone well past tangential. The core point is that, for reasons of his own, Fractal appears to have chosen to model his Army organization on the Red Army of the early 80’s. I’m approaching the project from a slightly different direction (a rewrite of the organization chapter of the ImpSB), and I agree with him that it is the best model. Speaking for myself, the reasoning is simple; rather than attempting to create a detailed description of a fictional military out whole cloth, it makes far more sense to copy either an extant or historical military about which a lot of information is known. In addition, because it is necessary to write up a certain degree of fluff to assist GMs in using this material for story-building, it helps if the military in question is that of an autocratic and repressive society.

Bottom line, I’m not really concerned about what Lucas said he was picturing, as there have plenty of things in the SWU that have not turned out the way Lucas pictured them. I’m interested in finding the best method of describing a realistic fictional military in a science fiction setting.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Don’t get me wrong, I also agree that the Empire should have been based on the Soviet Union’s Red Army (or heck, the North Vietnamese Army, the French Republican Army during the French Revolution, the Chinese Army, the North Koreans, and all of that shebang, heck, might as well also throw in the Vietcong as well since they’re an arm of the North Vietnamese Army and by extension the USSR and to a lesser extent Red Chinese.). Unfortunately, it’s not based on that. George Lucas more than made that clear (heck, if anything, Lucas would have enjoyed the Red Army and viewed them as the heroes.). And I also completely agree with you that to create a fictional military out of whole cloth, it is better to copy an extant or historical military with lots of known information. Actually, in my case, I’d outright plagiarize that military just to make SURE it’s as accurate as possible, right down to legal documents stating their creed and philosophy. I wouldn’t settle for common knowledge stuff since you’d be pretty surprised at how so-called “everyone knows that” kind of facts are actually false (for example, you would think the Nazis loved businesses and hated worker unions from conventional wisdom about them, yet it turns out from their 1920 and 1925 platforms that it’s actually the exact opposite).

I’m not entirely sure which parts of the SWU didn’t turn out the way Lucas pictured them, though (only thing that might come to mind was the original film cutting out Biggs’ line about the Empire nationalizing Lars’ homestead in the future, and at this point, especially after Lucas openly advocating for taxing the rich [which is a form of nationalization] and criticizing corporations owning government, I’m not entirely sure if he was the one who came up with that line or if one of his writers did, and if anything, I’m suspecting Lucas just personally cut that line out specifically because it conflicted with his vision.), especially when some hints of his vision did creep up in the EU (such as Leia’s flashback in Children of the Jedi where the Rebels basically conducted the September Massacres/October Revolution on the Imperial Palace staff as well as looted and shelled the palace itself, or how the Corporate Sector Authority was depicted as the bad guys and even having the Empire let them have free reign in an apparent contradiction to their status as a totalitarian state, basically being the Trade Federation/Separatists before the Prequel Trilogy had them exist.). Not to mention Lucas isn’t exactly the type to allow for anyone to deviate from him in terms of lockstep (the Prequel Trilogy is an infamous example of this where he had complete totalitarian control over production, with the quality results speaking for themselves regarding poor quality, and then there’s the fact that his continuity staff literally changed Obi-Wan Kenobi’s homeworld from Coruscant to Stewjon simply because of a joke that Lucas told on the Jon Stewart show), being almost like Stalin regarding how he ran his company in a way. And besides, speaking as someone who sat through school and had to be told the falsehood that the French Revolution and American Revolution are two peas in a pod in pure propaganda, I wouldn’t put it past him to try and give some semblance to the Rebels looking like American soldiers to trick his audiences into rooting for the Vietcong (in fact, both his and Murch’s statements even indicate such was indeed the case, doesn’t help either that Star Wars and History outright compared the American Minutemen and the Vietcong acting like they’re the same when in reality the differences between them are like night and day).

As far as your last point, as I said above, if I’m going to be a Science Fiction writer and I were to describe a fictional military, I’d make darn sure that it resembles a real life army as much as humanly possible, right down to outright plagiarizing any and all legal documents relating to said real life army, not to mention rip off actual real life events down to the most minute detail. It’s the only way to be sure the audiences get it. Heck, I’d even go so far as to footnote it in the actual work to ensure people look up the real life versions.

I must admit, though, I don’t recall seeing Fractalsponge even MENTIONING the Red Army in this topic before you brought it up. Probably the closest it got to being mentioned by him was the Warsaw Pact down below, which was after your discussion with multiple people. If I’m mistaken, then please, feel free to quote where exactly he said it, even post a link so I could find it myself.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

Well, Fractal can probably answer that better than I can, but he’s the one who pointed me in the direction of FM-100-2-3 which details the organization of the Red Army. And if you scroll up, you’ll see that at least one other person is aware of it (Chris Bradshaw, in his comment about the Red Imperial army).

As to the other, all I’ll say before dropping this conversation is, how many times has Lucas contradicted himself, or altered things from something he has said previously? The Ewoks were originally supposed to be Wookiees, IIRC. And regardless of what Lucas may have said about the basis of the Imperial Army, he signed off on an actual published book (the Imperial Sourcebook by WEG) that described an Army vastly different from the US Army. So, what Lucas said in some interview is less important than what was presented in the finished project.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Hmm, didn’t see him mention FM-100-2-3 at all in this page. In fact, you seem to be the only one who even mentions it based on the Find bar. As far Chris Bradshaw, he might have been aware of it, but some of his comments indicated he seemed to think more of the Empire being NATO than Red Army.

As far as Lucas, all I can say is, this bit is not an interview where he said it, but more like development notes which if anything backs his claims up (and believe me, I’m fully aware of how unreliable he is during interviews like his lying about Greedo shooting first for example): https://otnesse.tumblr.com/post/162081709399/this-is-from-george-lucas-1973-notes-for-star I’d get into more, but it’s already lengthy enough. I’ll leave you my email address if we are to continue: otness_e@mindspring.com, since it is a pretty good debate anyway.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

It’s in the comments for Lancer WIP #2. I tried to post the link, but it got lost somewhere.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Let me guess, moderating content of post message? I’ve been there. Had difficulty responding to you because of it.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Most of my information is second-hand, but multiple sources have cited the rigidity and the centralized nature of the Red Army’s command structure. One I recall in particular was an off-hand mention in a Command Magazine analysis of Desert Storm addressing the weaknesses of Saddam Hussein’s air defense network. To paraphrase, “Hussein had implemented the Soviet’s doctrine of ironclad centralized control while neglecting to include their doctrine of multiple redundant backups.”

In short, the issue is less one of how the units are organized than of how they are used, and how much independence of command does the commanding officer have at various levels.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Centralized command and control is great, but the Soviet forces in Germany were only a few hundred kilometers from STAVKA HQ, and very closely connected by radios, landlines, and satellite. Whether on the attack or defense, Imperial army units cannot expect a similar level of communication and direction from higher authority in the face of sophisticated jamming and possible temporary enemy space superiority. They would have learned their lessons from the Clone Wars, where Grand Army of the Republic land units were repeatedly cut off from support by CIS forces, on Jabiim, Mon Calamari, Umbara, and many more. (basically every cartoon episode, in order to create drama, but that’s beside the point)

Therefore, individual commanders have to be empowered and trained on a tactical level to execute mission objectives on their own when direction from HQ is lacking. The Soviet model is great for the “storm the fulda gap” strategic picture, but the Empire is facing a Pacific War island-hopping strategic picture. Now that I’m thinking of it, I wonder if there are any documents like FM-100-2-3 for the Imperial Japanese?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

The Star Wars universe features transgalactic real-time hologram communications. Even if WEG had it right, and the system has been hugely restricted post-Clone Wars, the one group that will still have unlimited access is high-ranking Imperial political and military personnel. Somehow, I don’t think communications will be as fragile as you think; independent operation would likely have its own contingencies, but that would only come into play if communications were disrupted.. Plus, you’re assuming that a military organization will automatically learn the RIGHT lessons from a combat experience, and that a newly instituted authoritarian government would allow them to implement those lessons either way.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I’m not doubting that the Holonet is a thing, but throughout Star Wars, we repeatedly see the ubiquity of jamming systems, and any ground objective worth deploying a Consolidator against definitely has access to high-end jamming. Even random nickel-iron asteroids can defeat an Executor fleet flagship’s transceivers, so it can’t be that difficult to cut communications.

Besides, as the Republic transformed into the Empire, the process involved the military gaining more clout rather than losing any, as Senate oversight steadily diminished and then ceased entirely. Palpatine may have purged the Jedi, but the senior officers of the GAR spent the period climbing the ranks, and turning their experience into new hardware and doctrine, even if it wasn’t ideal for dealing with the nascent rebellion.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Again, you’re presuming that said military learned the right lessons, as well as assuming that the desire for a flexible, independent force was the conclusion they reached. You’re also assuming that Palpatine didn’t have his authoritarian hand in shaping how things developed; that’s pretty much his SOP, after all.

I don’t see jamming being nearly as ubiquitous as that in the EU. The one time it was a major factor was at Endor, and I doubt the ECM capabilities of the Death Star are the norm for everywhere else. Even energy shields don’t seem to have a completely disruptive effect; Veers was able to have a full-holo conversation from the cockpit of his AT-AT with Vader (who was still in orbit aboard the Executor) through the Hoth energy shield. And without knowing exactly how holonet/hypercom transmissions function, there’s no way to say what it was about the asteroids that would’ve interrupted the signal.

I’m not saying it isn’t a factor, but there’s no evidence to suggest it’s an all-encompassing one that dictates operational and strategic doctrine. And there are ways around it, even then. Tight-beam transmissions from directional antenna will filter out most of it, so long as the communicating parties can aim the dish properly. The TO&E for the Red Army even includes dedicated signal wire installation units for installing land lines that won’t be affected by standard broadcast jamming. That concept can be applied to Star Wars surface combat as well; I picture burrowing droids laying the lines underground, where they’ll be much more difficult to detect and sabotage.

And even in the event communications are being jammed, that would be when an authoritarian military would fall back on doctrine; if comms are being jammed, act according to doctrine, and you had better have a very good reason for deviating from doctrine, else you will be made a very public example pour encourager les autres.

STONEhenk
STONEhenk
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Don’t most military have dedicated communication units? Cablelaying is often done by specialized unist, especially during ww2 time.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  STONEhenk

Yes. Most combat units feature some variations on Signal Corps units, who are responsible for everything from the platoon commander’s radioman all the way up to wire-laying for rear area units and sat-coms. This is usually attached to the HQ at the regimental / division level. Wire-laying is still a thing even today, and has its own set of tactical advantages and disadvantages.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

A bit of a correction, but the Death Star II wasn’t the one responsible for the jamming and EMC stuff. The novelization as well as various EU-related stuff made it clear that it was actually the Pride of Tarlandia (aka, the huge Star Destroyer tower thing that we briefly see a TIE ram into) that caused the jamming, and that once it was destroyed, the Rebels’ radar systems started working again.

And personally, I’d argue that Chris Bradshaw is more on point regarding what the Empire’s level of military structure is like rather than the Red Army example. Let me put it another way, if the Empire used the Red Army’s structure, especially the Red Army during World War II, and if Palpatine used his powers like Stalin did, they’d be dead, especially when the Empire had no known outside help for them, taking into consideration that the Red Army was getting creamed during the Eastern Front by the Nazi forces precisely because of Stalin’s more totalitarian control over it (and that was DESPITE their making preparations for the Nazis invasion at the very leastk, if not planning to attack them first based on this article: https://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2016/05/how-stalin-used-hitler-to-start-world-war-ii/), with only America’s Lend Lease program saving their butts. In fact, even afterwards, despite the PR, it was closer to a pyrrhic victory on the Soviets’ end.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

I fail to see how the Pride of Tarlandia would’ve been effectively jamming the Death Star while it was still on the far side of Endor. Recall that jamming was only a factor during the initial stages of the battle, while the Rebel fleet was making its initial approach. It may have supplemented said jamming after the trap was sprung, but this wasn’t mentioned as a factor in the films.

And I don’t see why you think this is based on the Red Army in World War 2. FM-100-2-3 deals with the Red Army as it existed in the late 70’s/early 80’s. There are plenty of ways an Imperial Army will be different from the Red Army, but this in no way means said Army will be more similar to a NATO Army fielded by a Western democracy. The point is that the Red Army is an excellent example of how a military fielded by an authoritarian government will operate, and the Empire is most definitely an authoritarian government. Perfect match? Of course not, but this can be accounted for, and will likely be far more realistic than any assumption that the presence of any difference AT ALL requires that said military be COMPLETELY different, and must in turn be based on the military fielded by a Western democracy.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

The groundwork for the Soviet Army of the 70’s and 80’s was forged in the War, and it really isn’t as different as its doctrinal descendent. The equipment changed, but even that is directly based on its predecessors. More so than the NATO counterparts.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Indeed, and the doctrine was pretty much “throw lives at the problem until it is solved.” Technology may have advanced, but the doctrine of large numbers of mass-produced equipment remained. NATO doctrine developed in response to that, with the assumption that there was no way to beat WarPac on quantity, so the emphasis was put more on quality. A US Armored Division was designed to take on equivalent Russian units at 3-4 to 1, which turned out to be overkill against Soviet equipment (if decidedly not Soviet tactics) in Desert Storm.

The Empire has the same history; the Clone Wars were fought by a mass-produced Army of clones who were ultimately disposable, a mindset that expanded by several orders of magnitude once the Republic became the Empire.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

“The Empire has the same history; the Clone Wars were fought by a mass-produced Army of clones who were ultimately disposable, a mindset that expanded by several orders of magnitude once the Republic became the Empire.”

Technically, both sides (as in, the CIS and the Republic) used troops that were viewed as “disposable” (the difference being that the CIS used droids instead of clones), so you really can’t use that as a comparison to the Red Army regarding the Republic (otherwise, practically every military force in Star Wars, yes, even including the Rebels, are Red Army standins). Not to mention the Empire didn’t strike me as being the type to just focus on quantity so much as quality. Even the TIE fighters were depicted as being able to survive glancing blows. Actually, if anything, the Rebels came closer to following through with that philosophy regarding throwing lives at the problem until it is solved considering how many men they lose just to fulfill their objectives, not to mention the more low-tech equipment they possess overall even including shields. And the Empire having very advanced tech points more to them focusing on quality. Besides, considering Lucas was very left-wing and anti-war (and probably anti-American as well), he most likely seemed to project that bit on Americans even if it were true that the Empire believed in wasting men via throwing lives at the problem. I know that in the Metal Gear series, they make it sound as though America also just callously throws lives at the problem to solve it regarding its soldiers, uses and disposes of them like cheap cars, largely due to Kojima’s leftist views taking the forefront of that series (some more than others).

And as far as the Pride of Tarlandia, the novelization specifically stated that the jamming signal against their forces stopped as soon as that ship was destroyed, which pretty clearly implied that it was the ship that was causing the jamming (and besides, if it simply augmented the jamming, don’t you think they’d still have the problem with trying to see the shield if the DS II itself was still jamming them?). And besides, technically, we don’t even know if it and the rest of the Imperial force was at the far side of Endor by the time they arrived. In fact, considering they were present just as the Rebels tried to cut tail and run upon discovering the shield was most likely still up, I’d argue the Imperial ships arrived at the designated spot just prior to the Rebels jumping out of hyperspace and the Rebels didn’t notice until turning around due to literally flying in blind.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

So, because both sides in the Clone Wars fought using disposable armies, this somehow negates the fact that one of them – the one that would very shortly become the Empire – fought a war to a successful conclusion using just that doctrine? There is an axiom that militaries train to fight the last war, and this is doubly true if they won that war. The Republic won the war using a given doctrine, and thus would have no reason to question it, especially not when suddenly being handed the resources to implement it on a vastly larger scale. And a quantity over quality approach does not necessarily mean quality is thrown completely out the window. It just means that, given a choice between a thousand excellent starfighters and ten thousand decent starfighters, they will be more inclined to go with decent, and accept a certain level of crew losses because they can more than afford to replace them.

At no point in the novel does it explicitly state that the Tarlandia WAS the primary source of the jamming; it’s merely described as a communications ship. While we’re at it, the novel also describes the Imperial Fleet becoming visible to the Rebel Fleet while still in the process of performing a pincer movement to cut around behind the Rebels and pin them against Endor and the Death Star, which is absent from the film (by the time we see them, they’re already in position).

The purpose of the jamming was to conceal the fact that the Death Star shield generator was still active, and had not been destroyed by the strike team, until it was too late for the fleet to react. It clearly wasn’t affecting communications. And by the time Lando and co. took out the Tarlandia, it no longer mattered because, as far as the Empire was concerned, it had served its purpose. As far as they were concerned, the battle was well in hand, and there was no need to hide the shield’s presence any longer. At least until that Imperial arrogance came back to bite them.

And finally, being willing to sacrifice lives in order to achieve a high-value objective is choice that must, on occasion be made even by militaries who do place high value on their individual soldiers and citizens. It is not a commander’s job to keep all his soldiers alive, it’s to insure that, if they do die, they do not die for nothing. Getting a working set of Death Star plans, which would in turn allow them to find an exploitable weakness, is the polar opposite of “nothing,” and the success of the Death Star run at Yavin justified all of those sacrifices and more. The Alliance’s choice of a guerilla war strategy was pretty much mandated by the fact that they had a tiny fraction of the Empire’s resources and personnel, and would’ve been crushed in any stand-up fight. As such, wherever possible (primarily starfighters, but in other areas as well), they invested in quality equipment that could both complete the missions assigned despite being heavily outnumbered and increase crew survivability, as trained fighter pilots were a scarce resource, and would be difficult to replace.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

My point with that comparison was that it’s a very bad idea to use Red Army methods with the Empire/Old Republic, especially when the implication likewise is that the various armies that opposed it adhere to NATO standards, and let’s face it, NONE of the factions in Star Wars ever adhered to that standard, or the American standard for that matter.

I don’t think the novelization would have specifically stated that after the destruction of the Pride of Tarlandia, the shield reading was restored if it wasn’t the case. Besides, if anything, considering that ship going by the EU guidebooks such as the Essential Guide to Warfare was the second-in-command vessel for the fleet (only the Executor outranked it, and that’s not even counting the Death Star), that would have actually been MORE reason to hide the shields, not less. If I were an Imperial aboard the Death Star and I saw they just wiped out the second-in-command vessel right before my eyes or learned of this, I’d be adamant on making SURE the Rebels were kept blind about the shield precisely BECAUSE I realize just how much trouble the Empire is in if they were able to take the second in command ship down (even moreso if the Rebels were able to gauge our shields, since it means that the Rebels would also know whether the shield was shut down.). This wasn’t simply one of the lesser-ranked Star Destroyers or ships that were in the area, this was something like the USS Iowa Battleship during World War II, for example, or heck, the Bismark, even.

And I’ve seen a few military veterans who disagree with you on that last point, one of whom even talked with a Russian (at least, I think he was a veteran, certainly knew his military history, anyway). The Russians thanks to Soviet PR seemed to think a great army is one that suffers massive casualties due to the results of World War II. The veteran member of FreeRepublic, likewise, specifically stated a great army INCURS massive casualties while keeping casualties of their own forces as low as possible. The conversation was here, I believe: https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3689970/posts Post 31, if I recall. So no, the fact that the Rebels DID suffer massive casualties does in fact suggest they adhered to that view the Red Army under Stalin felt (and believe me, they definitely could have achieved the same results with far lesser casualties). They could have gotten those plans without losing much of their own men if they truly adhered to the NATO doctrine or American doctrine. Besides, does the term “Pyrrhic Victory” mean anything to you? It’s where even when you technically meet the mission objectives and thus “win”, the cost was so staggering that the win literally wasn’t worth it. It was named after Pyrrhus of Ancient Rome, whose army won yet got decimated in the process. Heck, it’s actually doubly true if we go by the sequel trilogy, where they managed to make a New Republic that was even MORE broken than the old one, and got wiped out in the blink of an eye by the First Order (and don’t even get me started on the mess that was the Yuuzhan Vong invasion in Legends).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

Unfortunately, you’re using your point to arrive at a flawed conclusion. If you were to simply say that the Red Army is not an exact to match the Red Army, I would agree, and amplify my previous statement to the effect that I’m not planning on making the Imperial Army an EXACT copy. You, however, are insisting ad nauseum that, because the Imperial Army is not a perfect match with the Red Army, I should throw out the model completely, and instead use a model that is even LESS of a match (as in, the US Army) all because of a remark Lucas made in some obscure interview somewhere. The fact that you can’t see how flawed this argument is undermines your entire point.

And you may think whatever you wish about the Tarlandia, but aside from the fact that it was never clearly stated the Tarlandia was the source of the jamming, it is meaningless as it pertains to this conversation, because jamming communications was never a factor at Endor, just sensors.

<> This is an Appeal to Authority fallacy. And either he didn’t know what the word INCUR means, or you don’t, neither of which says great things about your position. To “INCUR massive casualties” is the exact opposite of “keeping casualties of their own forces as low as possible.” FM-100-2-1 specifically notes Russian losses in prior to and during WW2 (over 40 million combined) and notes that “Its [the Soviet Union’s] tolerance for sacrifice is high.”

No, armies suffering casualties does not mean that they adhered to the exact same view of the Red Army; there are degrees of acceptable loss to everything. And yes, the term Pyrrhic Victory does mean something to me; it means a battle won at far greater cost than the value gained. Considering the potential losses the Alliance would’ve suffered at the hands of a fully operational Death Star (the planetary populations of who knows how many rebellious planets), the loss of a few thousand fleet crewers, starfighter pilots and commandos to gain it is the polar opposite of Pyrrhic.

Bottom line, believe whatever you like, but you’ve not presented any evidence sufficient to convince me.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

1.2 million clones (I believe those were the numbers given, and it took 10 years to grow and train them) is a fraction of the forces that fought for the Republic, going by the Warfare source book. They filled the role of Stormtroopers in the Empire, being the elite tip of the spear, but apparently many millions of system defense forces fought backing them up.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

The Thrawn trilogy notes that that growth period was greatly shortened so as to get more clones into battle more quickly. IIRC, it was down to one year by the end. It’s suggested that the trade-off was a higher percentage of “rejects,” but the need to put bodies in the fight would’ve arguably been worth it. I expect you’re right about additional forces, but I’d be willing to bet it was a lot more than just 1.2 by the end.

There is also the unfortunate habit of Star Wars script and fluff writers to vastly underestimate the numbers needed to successfully prosecute a successful war on a galactic scale, but that’s not going to be soled here…

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

A method Thrawn introduced, ABY. Clone Wars era clones required 10 years to grow to maturity, and it was the shortest method possible -clones grown quicker were unstable mentally. Thrawn wasn’t even using Jango Fett clones, they were clones of the best Imperial troopers and pilots of his era. The only way to grow them fast in the source you cite was to grow them in a bubble void of the force, using those critters Thrawn found that had an absence of presence in the force, that he used to lug around with him so force sensitives couldn’t sense him.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

In short, if the Clone Wars was three years long, 1.2 million was the sum total of available clones, the next Kamino batches wouldn’t have been ready until 8BBY at the earliest.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

No. The Thrawn method cut the time to less than a month. The one year minimum was cited by Talon Karrde in the opening chapters of The Last Command, and he was shocked when Luke told him the current batch of clones were grown in 3-4 weeks, IIRC.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Here’s the thing, it’s all post the end of the Republic. Presumably, a large batch was ordered after the Senate voted to expand the army towards the end of the War, but they still wouldn’t be fully grown for years. Unless you have some source you can cite, it always required years of growth for a stable clone. Then you have to train them in addition, although training began once out of the chamber.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

One thing I may be wrong about is the size of the initial order. I saw the movie again yesterday, Kenobi visiting Kamino was told that they had 200,000 ready for immediate delivery, and 1,000,000 shortly after that. In the Clone Wars series, we see half grown Clones. The Republic didn’t order more until almost the end of the war, so they must have been a part of the initial batch. Half grown would represent 5 years of growth, so there were at least 7 additional ‘classes’ of clones after the first class. If they were all the same size, that’s 1.2 million a year, for 7 years, if the cadets we see are the last class, so about 9 million clones in total ordered. If the Republic ordered an identical number to the first army in 20BBY, that would be 7 classes of 1.2 million clones, beginning maturity in 10BBY, ending in 3BBY, so a lot more than the only numbers I was working off of, but still too small to prosecute a galactic scale of war.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Did you read The Last Command? That’s my source. Look up Spaarti Cylinders on Wookieepedia.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Here are the relevant passages from The Last Command (edited for brevity):

“Clones can only be grown so quickly if you want them mentally stable enough to trust with your warships. One year minimum per clone, as I recall the old rule of thumb.”
“A year per clone, you say?”
“At the absolute minimum,” Karrde said. “The pre-Clone Wars documents I’ve seen suggest three to five years would be a more appropriate period. Quicker than the standard human growth cycle, certainly, but hardly any reason for panic.”
“What would you say if I told you the clones who attacked us on the Katana were grown in less than a year?”
Karrde shrugged. “That depends on how much less.”
“The full cycle was fifteen to twenty days.”

“One of the artificial caverns held a complete cloning facility he’d apparently appropriated from one of the clonemasters.”
“How complete was it?”
“Very,” Mara said with a shiver. “It had a full nutrient delivery system in place, plus a flash-teaching setup for personality imprinting and tech training on the clones while they developed.”

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Fair enough, but the Jango Fett program was a 10 year program. Which is canon? Attack of the Clones? Or “The last command”? By my reckoning of classes of clones, based on the clone cadets and the information we have, we have two orders of clones by the Republic, one of less than 10 million, and a second order late in the war, presumably of the same size. There aren’t any records of any other orders of clones by the Republic. Possibly the second order shortened the growth to maturity, to meet immediate needs, but the costs of the army and navy were virtually bankrupting the Republic.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

I don’t see a conflict. Just because the Kaminoan clone system was the best game in town doesn’t mean it was the only game. The Jango program was more a “Cadillac” program, where the absolute best clones were produced with painstaking detail, while the Spaarti Cylinder clones were more of an economy car program, where mass amounts of decent/acceptable clones were banged out to offset mounting casualties and other personnel needs. Neither cancels out the existence of the other.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Was Spaarti Cylinders also a secret corasanti program?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Unknown. They were introduced during the EU boom period before the prequels came out, so when Lucas introduced his own version of cloning in AotC, the Spaarti Cylinder technique had to be retconned to fit in with the Kaminoan technique. This was prior to the Great Flushing by Disney, so all of the old EU was still in effect.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I was thinking of the Republic Commando novels is where they might have been retconNed in Legends

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

While it doesn’t cancel out the possible existence, the Jango Fett clones were the clone army of the GAR.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

The /first/ army. This does not preclude the introduction of later, mass-produced clones while the Clone Wars were ongoing, using much accelerated methods of production.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

There is absolutely zero evidence for this in canon. In fact, there’s evidence for the opposite.

Rusty
Rusty
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

You mean other than the mentions in ‘The New Essential Guide to Technology’ of spaartii cloning cylinders seeing increasing usage towards the end of the war to produce clones in months, and the (admittedly very, very bad) Traviss novel ‘Order 66’ mentioning entire replacement formations of spaarti clones grown in facilities near coruscant?

Additionally, it’s worth noting that never in AoTC do the Kaminoans say 200,000 or 1.2 million clones. They say units, which while probably referring to individuals, may also refer to squads – the Kaminoans had a seeming obsession with unit cohesion functioning primarily at the squad level. Hence, squads were grown together, raised and trained together, and deployed together – this is what clones in the Legends EU meant when they referred to ‘podmates’.

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  Rusty

To be fair, Rusty, the novelization for AoTC indicated that the meaning for “units” was actually “individuals”, not “squads”. That being said, though, Complete Locations does indicate it was closer to squads via the mention of millions of divisions bit.

Besides, I think Bob was referring more to the whole “clones other than the Fett clones” bit rather than Spaarti vs. Kaminoans thing (though to be fair, the existence of characters like Rex makes it disputable anyways, since I don’t recall Jango Fett ever being blonde).

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

It falls within the genetic possibilities as a recessive trait Jango Fett wasn’t a clone, and had the genetic makeup of his for bearers. While there’s a variety of hair and eye color amongst Jango Fett clones in the series, they all have the same face, the same height, etc.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

There is also zero evidence that toilets exist in canon, yet one can postulate their existence based on the fact that there isn’t shit all over the floor. What’s your point?

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well, you’d be wrong about that as well, as there are multiple references in canonical series to “the refresher”, and one appears illustrated in an episode of Star Wars Rebels. You have to base speculation on evidence, or it’s unsupportable.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Ah, so we’re expanding “canon” to cover EU material not included in the films. In that case, Spaarti Cylinders ARE canon. Next?

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Star Wars Rebels is canon, not EU material. I’m rather appalled at both how hostile and aggressive you are regarding differing opinion regarding a story of fiction.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

That’s not hostility; it’s bemused sarcasm. It’s how I react when a Star Wars fan imperiously informs me that a key plot point from the EU – that I just had to explain to him – isn’t “real Star Wars.”

Eric Otness
Eric Otness
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

To be fair, the EU stopped being “real Star Wars” after Disney gutted the whole thing, so Bob kind of has a point (and I presume another user does as well). And even back when it was around, it’s canonicity was debatable at best, since Lucas has been rather notorious for flip-flopping on that issue whenever he was asked (I know in one interview, he claimed flippantly that Anakin might have gotten his scar in Episode III from slipping in the bathtub for all he cares when asked about the EU).

Personally, I thought the old EU was better off as canon (certainly helps offset some of Lucas’… views on things that he tried to push from 1973 up to even today if that James Cameron sci fi show is of any indication, and besides, with the exception of certain Marvel Comics stories, and possibly Rogue One, most of Disney’s EU had worse quality.).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

People can believe whatever they want about Star Wars, but personally, when someone tells me that the Thrawn Trilogy is out because of Star Wars Rebels, that’s when I stop taking their argument seriously.

Anyway, we’re way off topic.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

There are new Thrawn books written by Zann. Perhaps you might read them? And there are other canonical novels written post Endor. I get it, you don’t like it, but it is what we have.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Eric Otness

The problem with the old EU was contradictory information. A problem with timelines, in example,. A lot of it was good, and some was total garbage – the wooing of Princess Leia, that should ring a bell.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

It’s actually being a bit of an ass. But go ahead and grab the ball and run with it. And you didn’t have to “”explain to me”, it’s been a while since I’ve read the now defunct trilogy. Have you read the new Thrawn books? Again, Rebels is canon, and new novels have been written, like it or lump it, it’s Disney’s property, and at least they’re trying for a more cinsistent and less contradictory narrarative.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Disney is Star Wars rebooted for small children and the simple minded. Some of their ideas are worth poaching for gaming purposes, but in general I really don’t care what they say is official or not anymore.

Anyway, Fractal already made his opinion on the matter clear, and I agree with him, so I’m moving on.

Sephiroth0812
Sephiroth0812
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Star Wars Rebels and anything belonging to the new Disney Canon does not “cancel out” anything from the old EU nor does vice versa. It has been stated by people from Lucasfilm that while the Disney canon is the only one getting new material, the old Legends EU is not “cancelled” nor not “real Star Wars”, it is an alternate universe/timeline and fans who prefer this one can stay with it.
There exist two instances where both universes/timelines overlap/share lore and these are the movies Episode I to VI and the 2008 Clone Wars series. Everything else is true only to their respective universe Legends or Disney.
Hasn’t stopped any people to freely mix and mingle elements from both they like anyways.

LazerZ
LazerZ
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I read something recently that states that the Chariot command vehicle was actually a modified version. Perhaps the original version was indeed what you describe?

STONEhenk
STONEhenk
2 years ago

It bugs me the picture only shows 24 scythes for the artillery battalion. Or the broadsword equivalents in another blue. Or the picture showing 5 AT-ACTs for a battalion.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  STONEhenk

24 Scythes to an Artillery Battalion works out to 8 Scythes in 3 eight-gun batteries, which is consistent with real-world artillery units.

STONEhenk
STONEhenk
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Yes. 3*8 works well but I mean the picture is not consistent with his OOB:

Artillery
platoon – 4 Broadsword equivalent + 1 chariot equivalent
heavy platoon – 4 Scythe equivalent + 1 Broadsword equivalent
company – (16 + 1) Broadsword + (4 + 1) chariot equivalent
heavy company – 16 Scythe + 4 + 1 Broadsword equivalent
battalion – 2 company, 2 heavy company, Broadsword company (support), 1 company battalion troops
Total battalion: (34 Broadsword/10 chariot) + (32 Scythe/10 Broadsword) + (17 Broadsword/5 chariot) + (15 TX130 + 10 Broadsword + 5 chariot)
= 34 Scythe + 71 Broadsword + 15 TX130 + 20 chariot

So an artillery battalion have 2 heavy companies of 16 scythes what results in een total of 34 scythes. (I think it needs to be 32) But the picture shows only 24.

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Real world artillery units are just as often organized into six gun batteries, and 4 batteries of 6 guns, of 3 sections of 2 guns is a more flexible orginization than three large batteries. Heavy artillery batteries are typically deployed independently, not as a massed battalion. In example, 6/32 FA in 1967-1968 was deployed near the DMZ in such a fashion as to be able to literally bisect the country with overlapping fields of fire, the 175mm and 8″ howitzers having a 20+ mile range. A bigger battery
Organization wouldn’t have done the job, and those batteries were 2 section of 2, one 8″, one 175, supported by a pair of Dusters. 🙂

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

As far as lift capacity, I think both the Army Corps and the Consolidator should have their own landing craft that combine to perform a full-scale drop. A Consolidator isn’t going to need to stick around in orbit supporting an Army campaign that goes on for months or years; other craft – such as Modular Taskforce Cruiser variants – can perform much of the support and logistics functions. Off-hand, I’d say that the majority of the heavy lift capacity (Titans and Chi’s) would be attached as part of the Consolidator’s air wing, while the corp’s aviation detachment would be primarily composed of more numerous combat and utility transport elements: LAAV’s, Zetas and TIE (mix of fighters and ground support) with a few Chi carryalls for repositioning AT-SPs

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

Regarding the Scythe, how are the different variants organized. I assume the mass driver and MLRS variants are artillery, and the gatling blaster is air defense, with the twin LTL as the main battle tank, but where would the ion cannon fit?

Also, on a related note, there’s a pattern since the prequels of tanks in the SWU having a mixed energy and projectile armament. Have you considered a Scythe with a single LTL paired with a high-velocity projectile launcher, ala the one on the -SE or the -TE?

Ragnrok
Ragnrok
2 years ago

I see you use the at act as logistics. You ever thought of doing the engineer vehicle conversion of the at te from the old janek sunbed comics?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

The idea of using the -ACT as an engineering vehicle is intriguing. As someone who works in the transportation industry, the -ACT seems especially cumbersome when it comes to the prospect of loading/unloading, even if a kneeling method is somehow introduced. Can you give some details about how an -ACT would carry out the combat engineering mission?

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Fractal already addressed this in a comment below.

2. ACT I’m envisioning as a combat engineering vehicle – the cargo it carries can be combat engineering equipment
– excavation systems (tractor-based probably)
– bridging systems (say using force-field bridges) – these could hypothetically span much larger gaps of rough terrain than a physical bridging system
– minelaying and mine clearance systems

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Gotcha. Must’ve glossed over that one.

Ryadra777
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

So Fractal about that last part when you done the AT-ACT model would you do a animation of it doing the force field bridge or not?
Also about the force field bridges would it work when going over water surface? And if so then the emitters would be very waterproof.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

That’s a fair point, but the -ACT suffers from the “bespoke” flaw you mentioned for other transports in the SWU. I’d feel a lot better about the -ACT if it was an open-top rear platform rather than like someone had just bored out a rectangular-shaped hole through an AT-AT. Something along the lines of the proposed AT-IC Kenner toy, minus the ion cannon, perhaps.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

As an aside, since you’re using the AT-ACT, do you plan to make use of the Zeta-Class Cargo Shuttle from Rogue One, as well? If yes, will you be changing the name of the Zeta carryall to avoid confusion?

Ryadra777
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Well both the Escort Shuttle and the Stormtrooper Transport are called Delta Class so it is possible.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Ryadra777

Yeah, but just because the EU was internally inconsistent doesn’t mean we as fans have to accept it. Technically, there was a Delta-class troop transport that predated the Consolidator (per WEG), even though no official stats were ever produced for it.

KurdtLives
KurdtLives
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

FWIW the U.S. Army LOVES calling as many things as possible the “M-1”.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  KurdtLives

I’m only aware of two: the M1 Garand and the M1 Abrams. Neither were in active service at the same time, and were distinctly different pieces of equipment.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Don’t forget the M1 carbine, the M1 bayonet, the M1 helmet, the M1 combat car (actually just a shitty tank), the M1 mortar, the M1 Bazooka, the M1 tommy gun, the M1 anti-tank gun, the M1 anti-aircraft gun, the M1 howitzer, the M1 flamethrower, the M1 rifle-grenade adapter….. need I go on?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Okay, but there was never a point where we had two different tanks in service that were both called the M1. Even the scout car and armored car were several years apart (early 30’s vs. late 30’s early 40’s). Yes, there was a lot of overlap of calling different things “Model One,” but there was always some sort of distinguishing terminology to separate, say, an M1 carbine from M1 flamethrower. If the pattern were to follow here, one of the Zeta’s would always be called something else, for clarity’s sake, if nothing else.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I would partially agree, with the proviso that, because of the likelihood of the two ships operating in the same theater (the Cargo Shuttle could very easily be delivering cargo pods directly to surface supply depots, bypassing any orbital cross-docking), one of the two will always be called something other than a Zeta in most communications, if only for the sake of clarity.

TheIcthala
TheIcthala
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I suspect that in many cases they’d simply be referred to as “Zeta Tango Charlie/Zeta-TC,” and “Zeta Charlie Sierra/Zeta-CS,” or whatever the Imperial phonetic alphabet called for. Possibly dropping the “Zeta” entirely unless they needed to distinguish between different classes within a category.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  TheIcthala

That’s more like comm callsigns, not official designations. If a commanding officer says “send down a flight of Zetas to reposition that unit,” it’s not immediately clear exactly which kind of Zeta he’s talking about.

I can see Fractal’s point, but my impression is more that the “Greek letter” designation of shuttles is the official military designation, not an overlap of name choice by different manufacturers. As in, it’s the equivalent of the “letter-number” designation used by the US military; when you say F-18 or C-130 or E-2, someone who understands the system knows immediately what craft you’re talking about.

I looked into it a while back and found that the “Greek letter” designation (called the Tionese alphabet in-universe) refers exclusively to hyperspace-capable military shuttles. Unless the Zeta is equipped with a hyperdrive (which seems an odd choice for a mass-produced trans-atmospheric carryall), it’s an anomaly.

Personally, I think there’s more than enough unused letters in the “Tionese” alphabet for a little judicious relabeling. The Delta-class Escort Shuttle and the Mu-Class Scout Shuttle (essentially a $h!tty copy of a line-drawing of the Lambda) could be Lambda variants, there’s an older Beta-Class Assault Shuttle that needs a good image to go with, and so on and so forth.

If anyone’s interested, here’s the list of so-far unused Greek letters in-universe:

Epsilon
Iota
Omicron
Pi
Rho*
Sigma*
Tau
Phi
Psi

*Technically, the Rho and Sigma Classes are assigned, but the ships used are highly modified one-offs ships in the comic books or obscure adventures. The Rho, in particular, looks far more like a YT-Series freighter than a shuttle.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

The Sigma class also had it long Range Shuttle in Legends 165 BBY

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

“highly modified one-off ships in the comic books or obscure adventures.”

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

There was more than 1 used and more than once was my point. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sigma-class_long-range_shuttle
But there was also another Sigma class Transport which that fits that you have said. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sigma-class_shuttle
I give you that

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  PhoenixKnight

Gotcha. The Legacy Sigma must’ve been introduced after I made that list. Still, if both are taken as official, it would tie in with both Fractal’s theory of multiple companies using the name and my theory of using (and reusing) the letters as official military designations.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Makes sense

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

That’s because there’s a “model-1” of every piece of equipment.

LazerZ
LazerZ
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I have just decided that the Assault Transport from Rebellion is the Delta-class in my headcanon (also rpg campaigns, etc.).

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
1 year ago
Reply to  LazerZ

Based on the game description, the Assault Transport is more like a purpose-built rapid response transport, designed to get a regiment of troops into action on a lightly defended world and provide them with a degree of fire support in the process. Based on the in-game stat system, it’s armed roughly on the same level as the Corellian DP-20 Gunship. Considering the Delta was “converted from a true transport to a glorified attack shuttle,” I’d look elsewhere.

LazerZ
LazerZ
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

That doesn’t seem that different from the description of the Delta-class to me.

LazerZ
LazerZ
1 year ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

I just decided on a headcanon based on your post. The Assault Transport from Star Wars Rebellion: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Assault_transport is the Delta-class.

LazerZ
LazerZ
1 year ago
Reply to  LazerZ

Whoops. Looks like I already said this before…

Ragnrok
Ragnrok
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Ok that’s fair. I only thought of it because the empires conversion of old at-tes into engineering vehicles seems perfect for situations where an atact would be too big

Hecatomb
Hecatomb
2 years ago

Do you have any interest in doing renderings of a Titan or Theta barge? There are very few images out there.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

The AT-ST’s inclusion in combined arms walker units irks me just a little. Mostly, I focus on the unsealed interior (the viewports) making it more vulnerable to gas attacks or area effect weapons like flamethrowers, especially in combination with the AT-ST’s mission as a “scout.” Based on the performance at Endor, the AT-ST seems more like a mobile infantry support platform, working best when infantry units can help protect it from boobytraps and ambushes. The AT-DP has advantages in this regard, but suffers a relative lack of versatility in its weapons loadout compared to the AT-ST. And yes, they were seen escorting AT-ATs on Hoth, but given what you’ve come up with so far, I see -SW’s being preferable in that mission.

I get the impression from your various walkers that you’ve upsized them sufficiently for the crew to undertake long-term (as in, days or weeks long) missions without the need to exit the vehicle; I’m picturing cramped crew rest bunks, toilet and minimal food-prep facilities tucked into various nooks and crannies. The -SW could conceivably have that sort of internal accommodation, but the AT-ST and -DP manifestly do not.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

In general, I agree, but I think walkers like the -SW or -ST would be able to serve a scout function in walker-only formations, where they are the smallest, lightest and fastest platforms available to do the job. They would certainly be badly outclassed by repulsorlift scouting platforms in a mobile warfare scenario (which is, IMO, part of a larger argument for not mixing walker and speeder-equipped units wherever possible), but would be more than capable in that role when the vehicles they are scouting for are even slower than they are.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

So, less true scouting and more screening / skirmishing?

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Just noticed that you included one light walker battalion in the scout regiment. How does that fit with your above statements on the capability of light walkers as scouts?

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

There was some old legends mentions of repulsorlift jamming, which might create a niche for scout walkers if the recon hover units are unavailable.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

That would also be the niche for air cushion platforms like the Mekuun Hoverscout. The original description mentions that it is used in environments where gravity field irregularities render repulsorlifts unreliable. The only time the vehicle was ever used in the EU was in Zahn’s Dark Force Rising, where it was used as part of a combined AT-AT/AT-ST force.

Is it possible that air cushion vehicles have sufficient surface contact to push through shields like walkers while still maintaining a semblance of the speed and maneuverability of repulsorlifts? Visions of Hammer’s Slammers-style combat in the SWU come to mind…

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

The only official example is roughly comparable to a Broadsword (the side profile from the ImpSB puts the Hoverscout at roughly the same size as a Chariot), so I’d suggest having size as its main limitation. I’m seeing it more as a mobility compromise that isn’t affected by the main weaknesses of repulsorlifts (can push through defensive shields, and isn’t affected by gravity distortions / disruptions). So, while faster than walkers, air cushion vehicles would still be slower than repulsorlifts and have a hard size cap that keeps them from scaling up any larger than, say, a Broadsword. Very much a niche vehicle, but still useful within that niche.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Well, it worked in Hammer’s Slammers, with vehicle masses reaching up to 200 metric tons with non-shielded armored hulls. Exactly how heavy are you picturing something like the Chariot or Broadsword being? I just figure since you’re going out of your way to include some relatively obscure pieces of equipment, it’d be fun to find some way to include the Hoverscout, as well, since it has the same source as things like the Chariot and the Lancer.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

I think that would greatly depend on the technology threshold, as in, does “armor” in the SWU include things like Trek-type structural integrity fields that reinforce the physical armor. My theory is that’s what “magnetically sealed” means from ANH, and there was at least one tank model in TCW that was equipped with something along those lines. If that’s the case, and the vehicle is packing enough power to run such a system, you get great equivalent protection combined with reduced weight. Then the question becomes how big of a powerplant can you fit on a vehicle this size. The use of fusion power plants in the Hammerverse was one of the main factors that made air cushion combat vehicles feasible.

I do like the idea of weight limits putting a hard cap on the use of air cushion vehicles, as it helps to explain why air cushion vehicles are relatively rare. If it works out for ACVs to be able to penetrate planetary shields like walkers and other ground contact vehicles, they might actually have the capability to scout for the assault echelon under the shield, with their combination of good sensors, speed (relatively speaking), a well-balanced weapons suite and dismount troops.

Daib
Daib
2 years ago
Reply to  CRMcNeill

Perhaps there are structural integrity fields, but walkers are (and should be) damn heavy. Just look at characters falling over in the corridors of Echo Base when AT-ATs go stomping by. Besides, ground vehicles being far less energetic than starships of similar size means a lot less juice available for powering those fields on months-long campaigns with little resupply.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Daib

Yes, walkers should be heavy, but were characters falling over due to stomping or the impact of high-power energy weapons? I find the latter more likely.

And consider all the systems that ground vehicles don’t have; hyperdrives, sublight drives, and powerful acceleration compensators (neutralizing thousands of g’s of acceleration; smaller, less capable acceleration compensators would have their uses for ground vehicles, but at greatly reduced strength). All of that power could in turn be focused into shielding and drive systems, which would actually make ground vehicles much tougher than their air- and space-going equivalents.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

For units like the AT-AT or -A6 companies, are you picturing troops being permanently assigned, in the same manner as a Mechanized Infantry squad? I could see serious flexibility issues in permanently tying a large group of troops to one vehicle type. IMO, it’s more flexible to just have, say, an infantry battalion or regiment which can be attached to a company or battalion of heavy combat transports for either a single assault or a full campaign. The US Marines take this approach; you can take a company of Marines and deploy them by helicopter (air mobile), amphibious tractor (combined arms, when mixed with LAVs and tanks) or by traditional landing craft, but are made more flexible by not being tied down to a specific method of transport.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

What are your thoughts on organic air defense units? I know you’ve got the anti-air variant of the Scythe, and an anti-air Broadsword would be an easy mod. Does the AT-AA work for the walker units, or are you picturing something else?

Road Warrior
Road Warrior
2 years ago

Excellent read boss. AT-ATC as an engineering vehicle is a very logical idea.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago

What are your thoughts on the SPMA in the OOB. I do believe EAW has shrunk it’s actual size.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

The main issue I see with mixing speeders and walkers is how the walkers will limit the mobility of the speeders, simply by dint of speed. IMO, a Broadsword artillery variant with the speed to keep up with the front-line Broadswords would be a better choice. Maybe SPMA’s would work for supporting lighter walker units.

Ryadra777
2 years ago
Reply to  Fractalsponge

Well the SPMA is 20 meters in length while the SPHA is <60 meters in length and 20.6 meters in height.

PhoenixKnight
PhoenixKnight
2 years ago
Reply to  Ryadra777

I believe in the scales are incorrect in EaW. If you looking to the design of the SPMA on each side, it looks like troop deployment hatches x3 I seems to suggest it’s much bigger than AT-TE size

Bgizzy
Bgizzy
2 years ago

I can’t believe how organized this all is! This is some seriously impressive work considering this isn’t your full time job. I can’t wait to see what you work on next.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

Another idea from Renegade Legion: there is still room for infantry units (or at least primarily infantry) as Garrison troops. In fact, static garrisons probably make up the bulk of the Imperial Army’s strength, just with an emphasis on holding ground already taken as opposed to fighting on the advance and securing new ground.

It’s also likely that there will still be some true Light Infantry units formed in response to the Alliance, especially for use in close terrain that isn’t conducive to vehicle combat.

CRMcNeill
CRMcNeill
2 years ago

For logistics, I see the Zetas being hugely useful, not just for flying in heavy vehicles, but for flying in standardized containers loaded with supplies, either to central depots or (seeing as how it’s armed and relatively well protected) closer to the forward lines. The LAAT/c from AOTC could, in addition to flying in AT-TEs, be used to deploy “portable power generators and shield projectors, observation posts, field medical centers, supplies and fixed artillery,” (Star Wars Complete Locations, page 88); the Zetas should be able to do all that and more.

Ryadra777
2 years ago

Interesting and very well thought out. But there are 2 things I want to point out.
1. Does the yellow-green block represent the TX-130? and if so why doesn’t have the name tag did you forget to give it one?
2. How would the AT-ACT be useful in battle? Since it’s role was to